US politics general thread

[rietrot]

And in these countries, they were controlled by private owners. What's your point exactly?

I find it odd that you want to argue post independence Subsaharan African political/economic systems....yet somehow you have not an inkling or clue about anything related to Lonrho's incursion into Africa.

Kenya
Zambia
Malawi
Ghana
DRC

These were all states who's policy and resources were owned by Lonrho. Which was a private company.

I do suggest you read up on it.

No I just don't understand what you're complaining about and why you are playing the victim. Most of subsahara Africa is a shîthole and not because of capitalism.

 

[Hamish McPanji]

No I just don't understand what you're complaining about and why you are playing the victim. Most of subsahara Africa is a shîthole and not because of capitalism.

Yeah, I heard your story....it's because of socialism apparently. That was your point, wasn't it. Which I laughed at, which led to this entire discussion

 

[rietrot]

Yeah, I heard your story....it's because of socialism apparently. That was your point, wasn't it. Which I laughed at, which led to this entire discussion

No it's not because of socialism. I never said that.

 

[Hamish McPanji]

No it's not because of socialism. I never said that.

Then who said this?

Hmm, despite being cross-cultural and cross-national the problems of each of these countries were caused by socialist policies. Gee, it must be unique to Venezuela though because the socialism they practised there wasn't true socialism right?

To which I responded:

Lol at your list.
What about the "capitalists" parts of Africa, that sided with their colonial masters. Less developed than a lot of the countries you listed above.

Was that too long ago?

 

[rietrot]

Then who said this?



To which I responded:



Was that too long ago?

Not me
Yes maybe it was too long ago for you.

Then you went on to blame capitalism for problems in Malawi and DRC without backing that up and just complaining. If it wasn't for Lonrho Malawi would be even less developed. It's not capitalism's fault that the people there don't want to better themselves.

 

[Hamish McPanji]

Not me
Yes maybe it was too long ago for you.

Then you went on to blame capitalism for problems in Malawi and DRC without backing that up and just complaining. If it wasn't for Lonrho Malawi would be even less developed. It's not capitalism's fault that the people there don't want to better themselves.

I confused you for konfab.

If it wasn't for Lonrho, we might actually have developed a little more. Our leaders sold out their resources to that company.

And I don't think socialism would have done any better than what we had. So I'm not technically distinguishing between the two, as opposed to blaming socialism for a select few countries ****holeness....while willfully ignoring that capitalism has done the same to others

My point here still stands: https://mybroadband.co.za/vb/showthread.php?p=21883235

 

[Techne]

BILL KRISTOL CONSIDERING RUN FOR PRESIDENT IN 2020

Bill Kristol, the former editor-in-chief of The Weekly Standard, is considering challenging President Donald Trump in the 2020 Republican primary.

Kristol, who is consistently one of the most vocal anti-Trump Republicans, has been considering a run for months, a source familiar with Kristol’s thinking told The Daily Caller News Foundation.

Kristol, who remains an editor-at-large for the Standard, said he has no plans to run but declined to rule it out when asked by TheDCNF.

I say go for it. Neocon coonts like him need to be humiliated even more than far left wingnuts.

 

[OrbitalDawn]

1) They don't practice anything close to socialism
2) South Africa has all the types of policies that the Scandinavian countries have, and has had them for 24 years, completely unopposed by any nasty Republicans . High taxation, high government spending, single payer healthcare, a public education system. Why isn't South Africa the Democrat paradise yet? Or better yet, why isn't Venezuela or Cuba?

Somalia has all the trappings of the conservative utopia.

Practically no government, conservative societal structures, religion, no pesky socialised healthcare or education. Why isn't it a paradise yet?

Hurr durr!

That is a bad faith argument and you know it.

The irony.

Funny how the same sort of things happened in the following utopia of the world:
USSR
China
Cuba
Somalia
Mozambique
Angola
Tanzania
Vietnam
Myanmar
Cambodia
Laos
Zimbabwe

Hmm, despite being cross-cultural and cross-national the problems of each of these countries were caused by socialist policies. Gee, it must be unique to Venezuela though because the socialism they practised there wasn't true socialism right?

Yes, you're right. Literally nothing happened in these countries other than socialism.

It’s his same tactic as trump is causing the racism in America.

Who here has ever argued that Trump caused racism?

 

[OrbitalDawn]

Rudy Giuiliani's latest round of interviews have been hilarious to watch. He's doing more to hurt Trump than the whole allied Democratic party combined.

https://www.newyorker.com/news/our-columnists/what-is-rudy-giuliani-talking-about









:wtf:

He admitted it was a scattergun of BS to try and kill a NYTimes story.

https://www.thedailybeast.com/rudy-...z-i-was-trying-to-kill-a-new-york-times-story

He knows the Trump cult won't care either way, so might as well try to drown out news in noise.

 

[OrbitalDawn]

Good description of what's happening:

https://www.currentaffairs.org/2018/07/there-is-nothing-inherently-wrong-with-state-ownership

Nordic state ownership is working perfectly fine, which is no doubt why Stephens makes no mention of it. In fact, if his intellectual compatriots are any indicator, he would probably wave away these examples and say that the countries are really capitalistic. This is the curse of socialism in the discourse: if countries do it well, people act like it is not happening.

The different treatment of Norway and Venezuela is the best current example of this selective tendency. Venezuela’s currency and price mismanagement has stoked an economic crisis that conservatives then attribute to the fact that the country has extensive levels of state ownership owing to its nationalized extractive industries, which it calls socialism. Yet Norway has even more extensive levels of state ownership, also owing in significant part to its nationalized extractive industries, but somehow escapes the socialist designation.

For conservatives, the word “socialism” does not really refer to state or collective ownership of capital, but rather poorly-managed state or collective ownership of capital. From there, the claim that “socialism” leads to poor management becomes tautological, as every example of well-managed collective ownership is either ignored entirely or conveniently excluded from the socialist label.

 

[OrbitalDawn]

Trump administration was warned of ‘traumatic psychological injury’ from family separations, official says

A top health official told lawmakers Tuesday that the Trump administration was warned about instituting “any policy” resulting in family separations because of the effects such separations could have on the wellbeing of immigrant children.

The official’s response came after Sen. Richard Blumenthal, D-Conn., asked every federal immigration official at Tuesday’s hearing over family separations to answer a particular question: “Did anyone on this panel say, maybe [separating families] wasn’t such a good idea?”

After a pause, Blumenthal directed his question first to Commander Jonathan White of the U.S. Public Health Service Commissioned Corps, who said he and the Office of Refugee Resettlement raised a number of concerns in the previous year about “any policy which would result in family separation due to concerns we had about the best interest of the child as well about whether that would be operationally supportable with the bed capacity we had.”

The Democratic senator asked the commander to further explain his response in layman’s terms, asking if he told the administration that children would “suffer” as a result of its “zero tolerance” policy.

“There’s no question that separation of children from parents entails significant potential for traumatic psychological injury to the child.”
“Separation of children from their parents entails significant harm to children,” White said in response. “There’s no question that separation of children from parents entails significant potential for traumatic psychological injury to the child,” he added, shortly after.

A Migrant Boy Rejoins His Mother, but He’s Not the Same

Parents reunited with young children are reporting mental health issues. One 5-year-old boy has started a new life with his mother in Philadelphia, but signs of trauma remain.

Before they were separated at the southwest border, Ana Carolina Fernandes’s 5-year-old son loved playing with the yellow, impish Minion characters from the “Despicable Me” movies. Now his favorite game is patting down and shackling “migrants” with plastic cuffs.

 

[Techne]

Good description of what's happening:

https://www.currentaffairs.org/2018/07/there-is-nothing-inherently-wrong-with-state-ownership

But but but but strong mixed market economies with socialized medicine are actually socialist countries.

Who still swallows this lefist BS propaganda?

 

[cerebus]

But but but but strong mixed market economies with socialized medicine are actually socialist countries.

Who still swallows this lefist BS propaganda?

You can wipe the flecks of dried spittle from your chin Techne, nobody cares about your socialist scaremongering anymore. Anything is better than the corporatist randian nightmare of present day USA.

 

[Techne]

You can wipe the flecks of dried spittle from your chin Techne, nobody cares about your socialist scaremongering anymore. Anything is better than the corporatist randian nightmare of present day USA.

That is cute, looks like you prefer the Socialist Tu Quoque poppycockery argument for socialism.

 

[konfab]

You can wipe the flecks of dried spittle from your chin Techne, nobody cares about your socialist scaremongering anymore. Anything is better than the corporatist randian nightmare of present day USA.

Socialist scaremongering?

So I bet you really are endorsing the ANC's decision to expropriate property without compensation then...


The US is a lot of things, but I am going to bet it will continue to have higher living standards than South Africa once this place is a socialist utopia.

 

[rietrot]

I confused you for konfab.

If it wasn't for Lonrho, we might actually have developed a little more. Our leaders sold out their resources to that company.

And I don't think socialism would have done any better than what we had. So I'm not technically distinguishing between the two, as opposed to blaming socialism for a select few countries ****holeness....while willfully ignoring that capitalism has done the same to others

My point here still stands: https://mybroadband.co.za/vb/showthread.php?p=21883235

You still don’t get the difference. Capitalism isn't collective it is individualistic.
An individual can be successful if he wants or he can be a subsidence farmer and nobody is to blame but the individual for their own destiny.
If Lonrho didn't force slaves to work against their will and didn't violently take land then it didn't do anything wrong.

This is so typical totay for lefties to blame the 1% for setting up businesses and being successful, developing infrastructure to extract that resources, creating jobs and food. Whilst being completely ignorant about the alternatives, pretending there is a better system when there isn't.

 

[rietrot]

Somalia has all the trappings of the conservative utopia.

Practically no government, conservative societal structures, religion, no pesky socialised healthcare or education. Why isn't it a paradise yet?

More bad faith dishonest debating tactics.
Ironically hiding behind comicsans as you yourself probability know how stupid your argument is.

 

[cerebus]

Socialist scaremongering?

So I bet you really are endorsing the ANC's decision to expropriate property without compensation then...


The US is a lot of things, but I am going to bet it will continue to have higher living standards than South Africa once this place is a socialist utopia.

Land expropriation? No I don't support dispossessing people of their property rights without compensation.

 

[The_Assimilator]

Socialist scaremongering?

So I bet you really are endorsing the ANC's decision to expropriate property without compensation then...


The US is a lot of things, but I am going to bet it will continue to have higher living standards than South Africa once this place is a socialist utopia.

Wow, your strawman game is on fire.

 

[rietrot]

Land expropriation? No I don't support dispossessing people of their property rights without compensation.

Slippery slope, because that's were socialism leads. Private property is a evil capitalist idea.