US protests/riots 2020

ForceFate said:
My point is that nowadays, things don't happen in secrecy anymore.
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What? The nature of secrecy is you generally do not know what happens.....
ForceFate said:
History unfolds before our eyes, compared to 1000 years ago when only select few were privy to such information and transferred it to scrolls and such.
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What proof is there that this ever actually changed? There is an illusion of transparency sure but that's it.
 
daelm said:
half-agree. :)

disagree that Trump is a useful idiot. Trump is blamed, correctly, for the things he did and the consequences of those things. and now, without the cover of the presidency, that long-deferred blame is going to materialise legally and with consequence. that's a good thing.

agree that having to do so distracts from serious underlying issues, only some of which lie with the Republican trend towards selling their soul to the lowest bidder. there are serious structural problems in the US, exactly zero of them are "culture wars" stuff, and they lie at the door of both parties.
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Trump was the useful idjut. While he is not innocent, the guilt for much of the woes are shared across party lines. Here on our own forums we've seen how people do not understand the US constitution, try and ascribe blame for crap to Donnie. These people did not think it out themselves, we could see it on SM etc. There was a vested interest to call people rioting, burning down crap, "peaceful protests". Or Just ideas. It was wrong then, but ascribed to Donnie somehow. Just one example would be Donnie allowing the Portland riots. Or CHAZ/CHOP.

Now I'm chuckling where the peaceful protestors are causing headaches where the leadership has changed. First "we" where glorifying it ...
(It took two months to refine that, after it bit her. Timelines and current events add context)

A few more months later ... barbarians invade...

This is where we see the hypocrisy floating about, proven true again.:
- Rules for thee, but not for me.
- The only standards are the double standards.

As I said before, it's not my politics (except being a Trumpite as per some here, don't know where I voted though. WWG1WGA!!!).

Now what? Here, grab some popcorn. Sommer grab plenty: :popcorn::popcorn::popcorn::popcorn::popcorn::popcorn::popcorn:

/Edit:
Apologies, before somebody berates me: peaceful protests (albeit fiery)
 
Sollie said:
Trump was the useful idjut. While he is not innocent, the guilt for much of the woes are shared across party lines. Here on our own forums we've seen how people do not understand the US constitution, try and ascribe blame for crap to Donnie. These people did not think it out themselves, we could see it on SM etc. There was a vested interest to call people rioting, burning down crap, "peaceful protests". Or Just ideas. It was wrong then, but ascribed to Donnie somehow. Just one example would be Donnie allowing the Portland riots. Or CHAZ/CHOP.
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i think we might be talking past each other about what we think constitutes "structural problems". for me, all the rioting, both left and right (whatever it was called then or now) is a symptom of structural problems. it's all coming from the increasing alienation from their societies that people have been feeling for decades. that, in turn, correlates directly to when both parties started serving corporations at the expense of constituencies and receiving money and support in return. while that was most overt when Reagan made it into national policy, it's been maintained and deepened by both Republicans and Democrats with severe results for people.

people don't always join the dots, especially over decades, but they experience the outcomes every day, and everyone has a very keen awareness of being screwed, whichever notional ideology they claim to support. that sense grows in them. different people find different outlets for that, but it's the same "break everything" attitude that emerges, largely because the political landscape is solely focussed on "culture" issues. pronouns, toilets, religion, etc., and there's a culture of exaggerated fear-mongering that has been very useful in the short-term to both parties.

in practice, none of that excuses anyone destroying their society, no matter how they justify it. but it does contextualise it, and point to what I call "deeper structural problems" that are going to emerge over and over unless they're addressed.
 
daelm said:
i think we might be talking past each other about what we think constitutes "structural problems". for me, all the rioting, both left and right (whatever it was called then or now) is a symptom of structural problems. it's all coming from the increasing alienation from their societies that people have been feeling for decades. that, in turn, correlates directly to when both parties started serving corporations at the expense of constituencies and receiving money and support in return. while that was most overt when Reagan made it into national policy, it's been maintained and deepened by both Republicans and Democrats with severe results for people.

people don't always join the dots, especially over decades, but they experience the outcomes every day, and everyone has a very keen awareness of being screwed, whichever notional ideology they claim to support. that sense grows in them. different people find different outlets for that, but it's the same "break everything" attitude that emerges, largely because the political landscape is solely focussed on "culture" issues. pronouns, toilets, religion, etc., and there's a culture of exaggerated fear-mongering that has been very useful in the short-term to both parties.

in practice, none of that excuses anyone destroying their society, no matter how they justify it. but it does contextualise it, and point to what I call "deeper structural problems" that are going to emerge over and over unless they're addressed.
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I'll go with what you say in general, but then again Americans are strange. Annermerikaners.

You never touch an American on his money, no matter who. It's the unofficial US religion unifying them, even the ones that will not admit it. It's not necessarily an evil, it's what built the US, made them great. However, it's how it plays out.

Let's stop a moment and be honest. I'm sayign there are a lot less real issues than it's made out to be. Of course the media and the types who peer reviewed Sex in Dog Parks et el (or whatever it was called), will disagree. The rioting, BLM. Is it not a cause that caused strife and division? Yet how justified was it really. I'm not going to say there may not be discrimination in certain areas, just like you cannot tell me racism has not been abused as a goto card in the US for a certain group to get an unfair share. In the 50,000 ft collectivists view it may look like a balance, when you get to ground level you see all the crap it causes in everyday lives of ordinary people. It's what fuels and justifies a white dude in a pony tail shouting in the face of a white supremacist shop owner (who happens to be black) and torching his shop. Of course now we can continue the game, saying - nooo, that's Antifa. But then Joe says they're ideas. Real hot ideas. Yet people hide being these, twist them. I'm sure Nike loved BLM protests, their sales must have shot up. Immediately those self interests that abused BLM, just turned BLM into a mob of thieving rioters, also the B in BLM. Oops. That's why I saw kuk at a mile when this started.

Of course this blows over to other countries, even here. That is the part of real concern to me. If the US wanted to declare burn-a-shop day, somehow fit it in somewhere under their constitution, it's their right. But it will be abused here 'cos 'merica ...'.
 
Sollie said:
I'll go with what you say in general, but then again Americans are strange. Annermerikaners.

You never touch an American on his money, no matter who. It's the unofficial US religion unifying them, even the ones that will not admit it. It's not necessarily an evil, it's what built the US, made them great. However, it's how it plays out.

Let's stop a moment and be honest. I'm sayign there are a lot less real issues than it's made out to be. Of course the media and the types who peer reviewed Sex in Dog Parks et el (or whatever it was called), will disagree. The rioting, BLM. Is it not a cause that caused strife and division? Yet how justified was it really. I'm not going to say there may not be discrimination in certain areas, just like you cannot tell me racism has not been abused as a goto card in the US for a certain group to get an unfair share. In the 50,000 ft collectivists view it may look like a balance, when you get to ground level you see all the crap it causes in everyday lives of ordinary people. It's what fuels and justifies a white dude in a pony tail shouting in the face of a white supremacist shop owner (who happens to be black) and torching his shop. Of course now we can continue the game, saying - nooo, that's Antifa. But then Joe says they're ideas. Real hot ideas. Yet people hide being these, twist them. I'm sure Nike loved BLM protests, their sales must have shot up. Immediately those self interests that abused BLM, just turned BLM into a mob of thieving rioters, also the B in BLM. Oops. That's why I saw kuk at a mile when this started.

Of course this blows over to other countries, even here. That is the part of real concern to me. If the US wanted to declare burn-a-shop day, somehow fit it in somewhere under their constitution, it's their right. But it will be abused here 'cos 'merica ...'.
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Look, when it comes to burning stuff those dudes are amateurs compared to us...shops are so small time, here in SA it's schools, clinics, municipal offices, town halls.
 
AfricanTech said:
Look, when it comes to burning stuff those dudes are amateurs compared to us...shops are so small time, here in SA it's schools, clinics, municipal offices, town halls.
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Ja, but they normally steal the chips before burning down the shop. If they get idea and start with the Nikes, I won't be able to get a good deal on a smoke damaged box.
 
Sollie said:
I'll go with what you say in general, but then again Americans are strange. Annermerikaners. You never touch an American on his money, no matter who. It's the unofficial US religion unifying them, even the ones that will not admit it. It's not necessarily an evil, it's what built the US, made them great. However, it's how it plays out.
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agreed. it adds an extra dimension of weirdness to the whole thing because they conflate their culture war stuff with economics and think that the former is affecting the latter, seemingly without realising that they are for the large part not involved in decisions about economics at all.

Let's stop a moment and be honest. I'm sayign there are a lot less real issues than it's made out to be. Of course the media and the types who peer reviewed Sex in Dog Parks et el (or whatever it was called), will disagree.
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and I think there are, but I also think we might be talking about different things. (not only do I have family in the states, and family who've worked on and off in the states, a big part of my job is the analysis of these things, so it occupies a lot of my thoughts.) comparing someone in the US to someone else in another developed country, they're much worse off than they should be. this isn't an accident, nor it is inevitable. in the 50s, coming out of the war, they had the same deeply corrupt relationship between the government, the military, and private military contractors that they have now (though it's increased in scale, obviously), but they had a powerhouse economy, and people had strong job security. at the same time they had strong unions, strong employee protections and a very high tax rate on the rich and on corporations.

between then and now, for the majority of people, this has gone away. there are a lot of reasons for this, but they all converge on the growing influence of business over politics, and the policies that this has led to: unions were attacked, corporate taxes cut repeatedly, employee protections removed, and so on. (you can look up a lot of this stuff, under wage stagnation and productivity to earnings and so on.) that's the actual meaning of "inequality". the new powerhouse economy is largely confined to a smaller and smaller part of the population.

these are the kinds of things that I'm calling "issues".

a large part of the Trump base, at least in 2015 and 2016, was aware of this. (a big part of his appeal then was his objection to global trade agreements and the restoration of the American manufacturing sector.) they didn't know or care that he was a huckster and would just be looking out for himself, they voted against the direction that both Republicans and Democrats took the country over 30-odd years. Sanders' support was similarly Americans voting against the status quo.

The rioting, BLM. Is it not a cause that caused strife and division? Yet how justified was it really. I'm not going to say there may not be discrimination in certain areas, just like you cannot tell me racism has not been abused as a goto card in the US for a certain group to get an unfair share. In the 50,000 ft collectivists view it may look like a balance, when you get to ground level you see all the crap it causes in everyday lives of ordinary people.
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the BLM stuff is amplifying and entrenching the polarisation of Americans, but it's not causing it. without going into a lot of detail, that violence we've seen emerges from long, historical, and systemic racism. other than the civil rights protests, America never had to deal with it before, is all. this round blew up after the visible killings of people and the emotional effect that had. but cameraphones, social media and the consequent visibility was the match, not the wood.

the polarization of Americans has been a long-term work in progress. there was a huge political shift in the 80s, at the same time as the attacks on employment started, to move people's focus to culture war stuff and campaign on "soft issues", like religion etc, rather than policy. this was a useful way to be able to move votes, while at the same time meeting the needs of business. if you can get people to believe that the most important issue is whether women have to be treated as well as men, rather than whether jobs are protected, you can sacrifice the latter and still get support. (I don't mean they shouldn't, btw - my point is it isn't either-or).

a big part of this is relentless fear-mongering. Fox, under Murdoch, is a great example of how to do this and the Republicans have always been more open to this. it puts in context why so many people are rightly repulsed by Republicans, and why there is so much anger directed towards them. they did the same thing that Trump did - recklessly encourage hatred and destruction - and they did it on a larger scale, for much longer.

Democrats pursued the same policy objectives as Republicans, they just made it look "nicer". they take a little longer, they throw some crumbs out, and they didn't fan the religious extremism, but they're just as culpable. in line with that, they did their own version of the "culture wars" putting on a big show of caring about minorities, while they profited from their poverty, and this has morphed into these weird "identity wars" that dominate the airwaves these days. many Americans, as far as I can see, hate them for that hypocrisy. they despise the way they want to be seen to have their hands clean while still fvcking everyone over and i really find it hard to disagree with them. either way, both parties are now totally inextricable from capital, finance, and corporate power. if i was voting in America this time, i'd have held my nose and voted for the Dems but only because, while they are destructive, they are destructive over a longer time and less of an immediate threat, which buys you time to try and force them to correct their ****. if there was a third-party that had actual policies, i'd move to them.

so all of that drives polarization and when you add the polarization to declining quality of life, less spending power, an open public discourse that demonises one person or another, you get a volatile mix. we're seeing that, and we will be seeing more of that.

Of course this blows over to other countries, even here. That is the part of real concern to me. If the US wanted to declare burn-a-shop day, somehow fit it in somewhere under their constitution, it's their right. But it will be abused here 'cos 'merica
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comparing violence is interesting. i know a few people who, if not already involved, would probably have been involved with antifa (i should check. when the Zapatistas were the big thing, they worked with them.) when it kicked off, it was a reaction to the reaction, a kind of vigilante bodyguard for other protestors. it encompassed some DSA people who would turn up in support, the original BLM people, a lot of left-justice groups, some kind of bizarre anarcho-communist clubs, some punk movements, and kids who wanted to be edgelords. Anonymous in real life, basically. from what i can see now, what it's become is destruction for destruction's sake, a small, but highly visible rolling riot with no real purpose.

comparing the Q bunch at the capitol, while the violence and stupidity is often the same, the movements underneath are very, very different. the riot at the capitol, as I've said somewhere else, was totally predictable. we've seen dry-runs for years. similar to antifa, that movement is an umbrella for a lot of smaller groups with different ideologies who find each other useful. it includes the Q-people who are straight-out, bugfvck crazy (and in my mind, a kind of weird mass schizophrenia), sovereign citizen nutjobs, militia people who have been forming for decades and actively doing homemade terrorism, evangelical extremists, racists, and general conservatives caught up in the swing of the thing. in neither case are you going to find one person or group that you can point to, and say "these guys did it". it's a symptom, and symptoms reoccur until you treat the causes.

the reason i point this out is that, while the immediate response to the symptoms in both cases must be the same - policing, law, etc - the solutions to the root causes for each are different. also, we have our own set of dynamics here, and i don't think this ports to SA as an example, as much as you seem to.

edit: sorry it took so long to reply, but I had work to do. :)
 
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