VODACOM shares

[JK8]

Yup. Indeed. Indeed I feel what it is like to be disenfranchised.

I also understand why there was a need for an armed struggle. But let us first fight with passive resistance.

Two wrongs JK8.... (complete the sentence on your own).

Lol discounted shares was not the only thing we were restricted from...
You can use public toilets, sit on any bench you want to, go to soccer matches, any cinema you want to visit, restaurants, universities, transport etc etc etc etc.....

 

[Debbie]

Well in that case, they havent re-classified since then have they? What data would they have used to determine race? It is centrally stored on home-affairs IIRC. It may be a contribution from various sources who ask for this info, such as banks, credit reports, driver's licence application (I think) etc.

But all you might land up doing is further tightening the classification, not opening it up. There is no way they could/would open up the BEE criteria to any whites IMO. You would be fighting an admirable, but pointless cause. One which I doubt would find much financial backing...

You don't seem to understand that THERE IS NO FORMAL CLASSIFICATION SYSTEM. There is no law that defines who is black and who is white. The classification of people on the basis of race was necessarily done away with when apartheid ended. There are no definitions for determining a person's race, no definitions in use by Vodacom nor by the government.

 

[DJ...]

Now you know how we felt................

Oh of course. But we go back to the old debate about two wrongs as Debbie rightly points out. I was also against apartheid for the small portion of my life that I could actually hold a meaningful opinion about it. As were my family who fought for it to be ended. Basketting people into races and discriminating against them is what caused the kark in the 1st place. How is it any different now?

OK, it is a little different because I as a white male can actually have a job, unlike most non-whites in the past. But race preference is not a good idea as we saw from apartheid. It brews anger and hatred, it does not bbuild a unified rainbow nation. The sooner this mentality of race preference is abolished, the quicker we as a nation can move forward and begin to embrace our opportunities economically and socially. Until then, we will struggle and fight against each other based on race, which is not acceptable IMO.

 

[Debbie]

Lol discounted shares was not the only thing we were restricted from...
You can use public toilets, sit on any bench you want to, go to soccer matches, any cinema you want to visit, restaurants, universities, transport etc etc etc etc.....

Actually, whites were excluded from non-white areas, universities, cinemas etc.

(Btw, these such laws, known as "petty apartheid", were done away with in the early and mid-1980s. That's more than 20 years ago.)

 

[DJ...]

You don't seem to understand that THERE IS NO FORMAL CLASSIFICATION SYSTEM. There is no law that defines who is black and who is white. The classification of people on the basis of race was necessarily done away with when apartheid ended. There are no definitions for determining a person's race, no definitions in use by Vodacom nor by the government.

I know that I have filled in my race on numerous forms, especially in dealing with government and applying for BEE accreditation 2 years ago for my company. I also know that this information was verified without ever actually meeting with anyone, so how they did this I dont know then. SETA accreditation for my company involved a race classification for every employee as well, not just the directors. I doubt this information is used once off and forgotten - I think it is stored.

IMO if they are going to play the race preference card, then they must have a classification system (whether it exists now or not is irrelevant) but how else do they prevent fraud in these cases and to what degree of black should one be? If my great-grandfather was non-white, should I qualify? Great, great grandfather? Father? Should I be a specific skin tone?

I think we might be arguing the same points now and I agree with your cause, I just think it would be a very fruitless one at the end of the day. Good to debate outside of the regulatory environment, but pointless if you are looking for answers or clarification.

 

[Debbie]

I'm not looking for answers or clarification. As with Telkom, the best one can hope to do is be a pain in the backside in the face of injustice.

 

[blunomore]

Now you know how we felt................

1. The particular group you belong to, is very close to losing its status as black if my info is correct. The group is considered to have been fairly advantaged during apartheid, their education was deemed to have been almost as good as that of white people and their window of opportunity is being narrowed. NOT MY OPINIONS BUT THAT OF PEEPS IN THE KNOW. Your group is considered to be sufficiently empowered by now. Jump while you stil can.

2. Believe you me, white women were kept 'in their place' too, so we had issues of our own

 

[JK8]

Actually, whites were excluded from non-white areas, universities, cinemas etc.

(Btw, these such laws, known as "petty apartheid", were done away with in the early and mid-1980s. That's more than 20 years ago.)

Lol.... nevermind, ps if you have white skin, blue eyes and straight blond hair.... goodluck!

 

[DJ...]

I'm not looking for answers or clarification. As with Telkom, the best one can hope to do is be a pain in the backside in the face of injustice.

Sure, but I tend not to step on the toes connected to the ass I might have to kiss at a later stage. I would love to do the brave and admirable thing and fight for what I too believe is an injustice, but I think this one is a much larger beast than Telscum with a much larger fanbase than just DOC officials.

Now what you do is insult the very ethos of the ANC, not just one of their puppets. I might consider standing up with you against this but it would have to be very, very well thought out, and would require the backing of numerous Moeletsi Mbeki's to even consider being heard, let alone the hundreds of thousands of "ordinary" Joe Bloggs' required. daunting task if you really think it is worth it?

 

[JK8]

1. The particular group you belong to, is very close to losing its status as black if my info is correct. The group is considered to have been fairly advantaged during apartheid, their education was deemed to have been almost as good as that of white people and their window of opportunity is being narrowed. NOT MY OPINIONS BUT THAT OF PEEPS IN THE KNOW. Your group is considered to be sufficiently empowered by now. Jump while you stil can.

2. Believe you me, white women were kept 'in their place' too, so we had issues of our own

Is that true? I think we played one of the biggest roles in the struggles for freedom. I doubt you right, even if the government tried they wont win against us!

 

[DJ...]

2. Believe you me, white women were kept 'in their place' too, so we had issues of our own

A symptom of male chauvinism, not apartheid. And women are already rewarded for this ill-conceived practice by being higher up on the current "privilege scale"

 

[DJ...]

Is that true? I think we played one of the biggest roles in the struggles for freedom. I doubt you right, even if the government tried they wont win against us!

I think you underestimate the determination of power hungry socialites with the backing of the masses.

I agree that your race also played a big role in the struggle, but then again, so did whites. Amongst whites of the time, there was just as much hostility between the English whites and the Afrikaans whites. I am generalising massively here but there were always two factions, and the majority of English speaking whites opposed Apartheid. Remember that it was also voted out by us, the public of the time. Most wanted rid of it! Most wanted nothing to do with it. Most wanted a free and fair country to live in.

It was merely a few power hungry individuals at the top promoting their far-fetched and irresponsible views on the masses of the time. Sounds familiar, doesnt it?

 

[blunomore]

A symptom of male chauvinism, not apartheid. And women are already rewarded for this ill-conceived practice by being higher up on the current "privilege scale"

You can call it chauvinism if you like, the point is that we were de facto excluded from a lot of opportunities.

And being considered for AA positions is not a 'reward', it is righting a wrong, the same as with black people.

 

[blunomore]

Is that true? I think we played one of the biggest roles in the struggles for freedom. I doubt you right, even if the government tried they wont win against us!

Your group did, no doubt about it! My better half also count amongst those people and I am very proud of him for what he did.

But if you look around you in government and politics, a lot of people who made huge sacrifices is being kicked under their asses by the new regime, because they do not appreciate what it took to get them into power.

 

[DJ...]

And being considered for AA positions is not a 'reward', it is righting a wrong, the same as with black people.

Women were excluded based on gender. Therefore the correct righting of a wrong would be to provide women with better opportunities than men these days - which is already in practice. Problem solved.

Well actually, IMO it really is a case of what is good for the goose is good for the gander. Therefore I say screw preference and mistakes from the past. Wipe the slate clean with everyone on an equal footing. Gender, race or six finger tribes, it shouldnt make a difference...

 

[blunomore]

Women were excluded based on gender. Therefore the correct righting of a wrong would be to provide women with better opportunities than men these days - which is already in practice. Problem solved.

Well actually, IMO it really is a case of what is good for the goose is good for the gander. Therefore I say screw preference and mistakes from the past. Wipe the slate clean with everyone on an equal footing. Gender, race or six finger tribes, it shouldnt make a difference...

I have said before that AA should have a limited lifespan and there should be a principle of 'once empowered, always empowered'.

 

[Debbie]

Sure, but I tend not to step on the toes connected to the ass I might have to kiss at a later stage.

Which is exactly why apartheid lasted as long as it did, why mugabe is still in power, and why the brutal Taliban ruled Afghanistan for years.

I would love to do the brave and admirable thing and fight for what I too believe is an injustice, but I think this one is a much larger beast than Telscum with a much larger fanbase than just DOC officials.

Now what you do is insult the very ethos of the ANC, not just one of their puppets. I might consider standing up with you against this but it would have to be very, very well thought out, and would require the backing of numerous Moeletsi Mbeki's to even consider being heard, let alone the hundreds of thousands of "ordinary" Joe Bloggs' required. daunting task if you really think it is worth it?

DJK, followers follow, but leaders... well they just do their own thing.

 

[DJ...]

Which is exactly why apartheid lasted as long as it did, why mugabe is still in power, and why the brutal Taliban ruled Afghanistan for years.



DJK, followers follow, but leaders... well they just do their own thing.

Very true - having run two successful companies I have always considered myself a leader in most ways. It is a personality trait I am proud of, but sometimes I fear the repercussions of waking a sleeping beast, waiting for Malema's call to take up arms and fight against the counter-revolutionary movements, such as the one telling people BEE is not the correct way forward.

You make the comparison to Zim which is interesting. Whilst I believe there is much more to the quiet-diplomacy Mbeki adopted, I believe that in certain cases it is necessary. In this case (not Zim), I believe it is the correct step. I dont believe confronting the beast head on is the right way. If I were ever to take a up a challenge to speak for the those against what I really do believe to be a prejudicial, biased and unconstitutional law, it would be according to a well thought out strategic plan, not a "balls to the wall" "I have a 100k signature petition" kind of way. I am not saying I woudnt do it, I am merely saying I would have to consider my motivations for doing it and how I would consider doing it. Buying shares and challenging my racial status would probably not be my first move on the racial chess board...

 

[blunomore]

Very true - having run two successful companies I have always considered myself a leader in most ways. It is a personality trait I am proud of, but sometimes I fear the repercussions of waking a sleeping beast, waiting for Malema's call to take up arms and fight against the counter-revolutionary movements, such as the one telling people BEE is not the correct way forward.

You make the comparison to Zim which is interesting. Whilst I believe there is much more to the quiet-diplomacy Mbeki adopted, I believe that in certain cases it is necessary. In this case (not Zim), I believe it is the correct step. I dont believe confronting the beast head on is the right way. If I were ever to take a up a challenge to speak for the those against what I really do believe to be a prejudicial, biased and unconstitutional law, it would be according to a well thought out strategic plan, not a "balls to the wall" "I have a 100k signature petition" kind of way. I am not saying I woudnt do it, I am merely saying I would have to consider my motivations for doing it and how I would consider doing it. Buying shares and challenging my racial status would probably not be my first move on the racial chess board...

True. There is more than one entrance to a house than the front door .... lots of people work behind the scenes to achieve far greater things.

 

[Debbie]

DJK, as bnm implies, there are many ways to skin a cat/many ways to be a thorn in the side. My proposition is based on a passive resistance approach, not an approach preaching violence or force.

“Black People/Persons” - has the meaning ascribed to it under Code 000 of the Codes, for present purposes being Africans, Coloureds, Indians and Chinese who are natural persons and who are South African citizens by
(i) birth or descent, or
(ii) naturalisation occurring
--(a) prior to 27 April
1994, being the commencement date of the Constitution of the
Republic of South Africa of 1993, or
--(b) after that date but who would have qualified for naturalisation prior to that date if it were not for the apartheid policies in place in South Africa, and “Black” shall be
construed accordingly;

“Codes” - Broad-Based Black Economic Empowerment Codes of Good Practice
gazetted under the BBBEE Act from time to time

Now, where can I get consolidated BBEE "codes"?