Voting?

May I ask why you say this? Have you ever looked at the bastions of communism/socialism and ever wondered why they all crumbled and are now embracing capitalism? Where those people ever better off under communism than their counterparts under capitalism where you can basically decide your own destiny in life?

Quite frankly, if the government is not going to look after me, provide for me, supply me with food, clothing, housing, health care, education, services and security then what on earth do I need a government for?

They act all important and spend their time strutting about making rules and regulations and red tape and bureaucracy while wasting my money on cars and houses and travel and big salaries for themselves. If a government is not socialist, it's a waste of time and space and we would be much better off just leaving them out of the equation all together - let the private sector supply goods and services needed to efficiently run things and let the justice system deal with law and order and let the fat cat government officials go and do some real work instead of spending their time telling us how to live our lives and what we can and can't do without their approval.

I want a a government that is kind and compassionate and sees as it's duty that it is there to look after it's citizens in any way it can. I look at countries like the soviet union - the so-called bastion of communism - that was not communism any more than china is communist. They called themselves communist but they didn't implement any communist ideology at all - it was once again fat cats, greedy and corrupt, perverting the ideology for their own personal ends. You can decide your own destiny in life under capitalism? Really? Tell that to the poor, the uneducated, the frail, the sick, the misfits who are expected to compete with the filthy rich, the privileged, the psychopaths and bankers who have control of the money and peoples lives. It's all nonsense.
 
I'm not going to vote for someone that doesn't represent me. It defeats the purpose of voting.

A good chess player is a good strategist. And a good strategist will often make alliances with people he does not effectively agree with in order to weaken his enemy further.
You can walk together with some people for a long time before it is time to part ways. Your vote is a tremendous privilege and responsibility.
The onus is on you to use it as wisely as possible. Simply putting it into a draw and shutting it away is not a wise or strategic stewardship of it.
There may be some parties that you don't necessarily agree with 100% ... in fact you will NEVER find a party that you agree with 100%.
But by giving them your vote, you may actually be weakening the party you don't like and moving the party that you voted for into the direction that you do like.
Get involved, tell them your concerns, help change them for the better, or even start your own party.
But don't just sit on your vote. That is just plain dumb and irresponsible.
 
I'm sorry, I actually forgot to add that to my post. She conceded that yes, she has zero right to complain about government and the way things are going. She doesn't complain. So, I give her that.

Over the next year, I will be doing more to convince her to vote - small steps. ;)

I'm sorry, but if she works and pays taxes she has every right to complain whether you vote or not. Are you telling me if I vote, it gives me a right to complain? What if I vote for a small party that is never going to win, can I still complain? What if I vote for the ANC, can I then not complain, because I voted for them? I'm sorry, but that makes no sense
 
You are a ****ing retard. There is nothing wrong with our electoral process.
I never said there was anything wrong with our electoral process. I said that by voting and taking part in the electoral process you are legitimising the government of the day - whoever it is.
If the majority of people didn't vote the government can't claim to legitimately represent the will of the people.
If 80% of the people vote, it can.
So if you vote for the DA and the ANC wins you have still given the ANC government legitimacy - just by taking part in the electoral process - the more people that vote the more legitimate the winning party is, whoever it is.
 
I'm sorry, but if she works and pays taxes she has every right to complain whether you vote or not. Are you telling me if I vote, it gives me a right to complain? What if I vote for a small party that is never going to win, can I still complain? What if I vote for the ANC, can I then not complain, because I voted for them? I'm sorry, but that makes no sense

If you refrain from voting, it stands to reason that you thus forfeit any right to complain, because you did nothing to change the status quo.

You should vote for you feel will make the most apt changes to and for your country, as a whole, in line with your beliefs. Party size is irrelevant. Every party started off with just one member.

If you blindly voted for the ANC, knowing full well their track record in terms past, and are now unhappy with where the country is, you should put your complaints on paper, in the form of an X, for another political party at the next general elections.
 
If you refrain from voting, it stands to reason that you thus forfeit any right to complain, because you did nothing to change the status quo.

You should vote for you feel will make the most apt changes to and for your country, as a whole, in line with your beliefs. Party size is irrelevant. Every party started off with just one member.

If you blindly voted for the ANC, knowing full well their track record in terms past, and are now unhappy with where the country is, you should put your complaints on paper, in the form of an X, for another political party at the next general elections.

Refraining from voiting is democratic right. I know people who dont vote due to their religious beliefs. Just because I do not vote, does not mean I forfeit any rights. Like I said, as long as I ma a tax paying citizen, I have the right to complain, because the ruling government, who ever that is, has an obligation to the people of this country.
 
A good chess player is a good strategist. And a good strategist will often make alliances with people he does not effectively agree with in order to weaken his enemy further.
There is no enemy.

You can walk together with some people for a long time before it is time to part ways. Your vote is a tremendous privilege and responsibility.
All votes need to be taken on an individual level, otherwise it defeats the purpose. That is the responsibility you carry - to vote for those that most accurately represent you.

The onus is on you to use it as wisely as possible. Simply putting it into a draw and shutting it away is not a wise or strategic stewardship of it.
? The vote for who represents you is the purpose of voting.

There may be some parties that you don't necessarily agree with 100% ... in fact you will NEVER find a party that you agree with 100%.
Obviously.

But by giving them your vote, you may actually be weakening the party you don't like and moving the party that you voted for into the direction that you do like.
I do not care for weakening another party, it is but a side-effect to voting for the party that I think represents me.

Get involved, tell them your concerns, help change them for the better, or even start your own party.
The DA isn't in my ideological direction, so conversation would be meaningless. I'm not politically involved enough to finance my own party.

But don't just sit on your vote. That is just plain dumb and irresponsible.
I'm only sitting on it up to election. I will be voting. I'm not sure what's dumb or stupid about it, I actually think it's pretty smart. :confused:
 
I'm sorry, but if she works and pays taxes she has every right to complain whether you vote or not. Are you telling me if I vote, it gives me a right to complain? What if I vote for a small party that is never going to win, can I still complain? What if I vote for the ANC, can I then not complain, because I voted for them? I'm sorry, but that makes no sense

If you don't vote - for change, then you certainly cannot complain as it doesn't bother you that much. If it did, you would vote for the party you felt strongly about.

If I am at the till in Spar and the lady at the till over charges me for a loaf of bread - be it a few Rand more than what was advertised on the shelf, if I do not complain about that - just accept it. That is the same as not voting. You're accepting the way things are, therefore, due to not voting, you can't complain.

How you fail to comprehend that, is amazing.
 
Refraining from voiting is democratic right. I know people who dont vote due to their religious beliefs. Just because I do not vote, does not mean I forfeit any rights. Like I said, as long as I ma a tax paying citizen, I have the right to complain, because the ruling government, who ever that is, has an obligation to the people of this country.

It is a right, but a defeatist and monumentally stupid one.

Taxes and votes are two very different things, the latter of which, has absolutely no place in this discussion whatsoever.
 
I'm not going to vote for someone that doesn't represent me. It defeats the purpose of voting.
While it is your right to abstain from voting, I just have to highlight the numbers again to illustrate the inefficiency of this.

Let’s look at a rough summary of the 2009 elections:
Votes: 17680700
ANC: 11650700 (65.9%)
DA: 2945800 (16.7%)
Other parties: 3084200 (17.4%)

Now if a million people decide not to vote for the ANC anymore, but then abstain from voting (leaving the absolute number of votes for other parties the same):
Didn't vote: 1000000
Votes: 16680700
ANC: 10650700 (63.9%)
DA: 2945800 (17.7%)
Other: 3084200 (18.4%)
Clearly, a million votes lost this was makes almost no dent. As a matter of interest, the ANC will have to lose about 8.7 million voters (deciding not to vote) for the ANC/DA split to be equal. This is just silly.

Now I understand that this example isn’t applicable to someone who feels that they aren’t represented, so I think it would be interesting if we could have some kind of a vote of no confidence (in anyone) – a No One Party if you must. This would give the concerned voter a chance to state that they feel unrepresented, without the risk of making almost no dent in the status quo. Also, this way people could vote against the actions of a ruling party without aligning themselves with another party. Now if our one million disgruntled ANC voters voted for the No One Party, the ANC would feel it much more and this might even catalyse some change…
Votes: 17680700
ANC: 10650700 (60.2%)
DA: 2945800 (16.7%)
Other: 3084200 (17.4%)
No One Party: 1000000 (5.7%)

Ok, I understand that there will be an issue if the No One Party wins, but I’m sure before that time, someone will have figured out what those people want and tried to move their vote.
 
How you fail to comprehend that, is amazing.

How you fail to see that it is my right not vote is what amazes me. For all the talk of the uneducated not voting, it amazes me that the educated who votes thinks that voting is non negotiable. Voting for change, what does that mean? Do I need to vote for the DA, just because I do not agree with the ANC. That does not make sense. I have spoken to friends who is apparantly BIG DA supporters. When I asked them why do they vote, I was told they voting for change. Then I asked them, Why DA then. Then I was told because the DA delivers. When I asked what do they deliver, I was told services. This is from Educated people. It shocks me how many "educated" people vote for a party, without even knowing their policies, or what exactly they are voting for. I believe in doing firm research on all parties and then deciding if I'm going to vote or excersise my right not to vote.
 
If you refrain from voting, it stands to reason that you thus forfeit any right to complain, because you did nothing to change the status quo.
I feel it's the opposite - only by voting do you forfeit the right to complain because you've given the winning party legitimacy by taking part in the process which put them in power. Only those who refrain from voting have the right to complain, since, to them, the government is illegitimate - they weren't voted in by the person.

Imagine if I knocked on your door one day and told you we (some of your neighbours) have decided our street needs a king and we're going to elect a king, these are the candidates, so please come vote for who you prefer. The king, once voted in will collect a weekly tax and will have wide ranging powers over the people living in the street. By voting, you agree that the winner is the legitimate king and will abide by his rules.
Being the sensible person you are you tell the person to fck off, you don't want or need a king, go away.
After the king is elected, his men come to your door to collect taxes.
Tell me, who has the right to complain? The person who voted for the other guy or you, who didn't vote at all?
You can complain, you can say you didn't vote for the king, you're not interested in a king, go away.
The other guy can complain that his guy didn't win but since he voted, he can't complain about paying taxes to the guy who did win - he took part in electing him after all...
 
How you fail to see that it is my right not vote is what amazes me. For all the talk of the uneducated not voting, it amazes me that the educated who votes thinks that voting is non negotiable. Voting for change, what does that mean? Do I need to vote for the DA, just because I do not agree with the ANC. That does not make sense. I have spoken to friends who is apparantly BIG DA supporters. When I asked them why do they vote, I was told they voting for change. Then I asked them, Why DA then. Then I was told because the DA delivers. When I asked what do they deliver, I was told services. This is from Educated people. It shocks me how many "educated" people vote for a party, without even knowing their policies, or what exactly they are voting for. I believe in doing firm research on all parties and then deciding if I'm going to vote or excersise my right not to vote.

I think you've gone off track here. To remind you - we were discussing why you feel that a person who doesn't vote has a right to complain, due to paying their taxes.

I respect your right not to vote - however, by not voting, you're giving the ANC your vote anyway. So, if it's not the DA (And no one is saying you must vote for them ) - then a smaller party. Regardless of how small they are, every party started off with one member.
 
Quite frankly, if the government is not going to look after me, provide for me, supply me with food, clothing, housing, health care, education, services and security then what on earth do I need a government for?

I picture a spoilt kid standing with his arms crossed that will rather eat a rotten apple because he wants a chocolate bar when his father can only give him a sweet.

The harsh reality is politicians are just that, politicians. To get where they are involves whoring ones self to the man with the biggest bank account. Your Utopia where everyone is equal and living the dream is just that, a dream. It's time to wake up and realise you're living on Earth where we sometimes have to take the sweet because the alternative is well a rotten apple.

So you can spend countless hours standing in your little corner with your arms crossed demanding perfection but just remember every time a little girl is raped, a farmer murdered, a rhino de-horned, a politician steals your taxes... your search for perfection in an imperfect world is only serving the murderers, rapists and thieves... a excuse only you will have to except the day you looking down the end of a barrel asking God, "Why is this happening to me?"

"All that is necessary for the triumph of evil is that good men do nothing"
 
I'm sorry, but if she works and pays taxes she has every right to complain whether you vote or not. Are you telling me if I vote, it gives me a right to complain? What if I vote for a small party that is never going to win, can I still complain? What if I vote for the ANC, can I then not complain, because I voted for them? I'm sorry, but that makes no sense

But her lack of voting means that she is willing to accept the government the masses brings into power and how this govnerment chooses to spend her taxes, be it for fancy cars, mansions or clothing is a choice she made when she cast her vote for the majority to decide hers and her families future.

Voting or not voting either way you are choosing the future of a nation, are you willing to let the next man make that choice for you?
 
I feel it's the opposite - only by voting do you forfeit the right to complain because you've given the winning party legitimacy by taking part in the process which put them in power. Only those who refrain from voting have the right to complain, since, to them, the government is illegitimate - they weren't voted in by the person.

That is utter stupidity. How can you give them legitimacy by voting for somebody else?

That's like saying that I have prospered the Firestone Tyre company by fitting Yokahama tyres on my car.
 
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