Voting?

[Flanders]

go and play somewhere in WC.

The bitterness is strong in this one. Not graduated to the trough yet I take it?

 

[Sherbang]

That is utter stupidity. How can you give them legitimacy by voting for somebody else?

By voting you are agreeing that the party who gets the most votes is the legitimate leadership of the country, whoever that may be. It's not so hard to understand. If the majority of people decided not to vote in the next election the winner would not be legitimate since the majority of people did not vote. It's the very act of taking part in the election that gives the winner legitimacy.

 

[LazyLion]

By voting you are agreeing that the party who gets the most votes is the legitimate leadership of the country, whoever that may be. It's not so hard to understand. If the majority of people decided not to vote in the next election the winner would not be legitimate since the majority of people did not vote. It's the very act of taking part in the election that gives the winner legitimacy.

Rubbish. You can't be said to approve of a party that you explicitly voted against.
Refer to Plain and Simple Logic.

If anything, it is those who refused to vote who are to blame for that's party's win.
But those who voted explicitly against that party have made their choice clear and on record for all to see.

 

[Sherbang]

I picture a spoilt kid standing with his arms crossed that will rather eat a rotten apple because he wants a chocolate bar when his father can only give him a sweet.

Picture what you want. I'll vote for a socialist party that's not corrupt or I won't vote. I'm not going to support a party who is corrupt and neither will I support a party that doesn't represent me or my needs. Voting is a way for people to feel like they've made a difference while actually just handing all responsibility over to someone else and then sitting back and feeling smug about themselves for being so responsible.

"All that is necessary for the triumph of evil is that good men do nothing"

Just because I choose not to vote doesn't mean I do nothing. Voting isn't the be all and end all = it's mostly a convenience for those who wish to rule and need the appearance of legitimacy.

 

[Sherbang]

Rubbish. You can't be said to approve of a party that you explicitly voted against.
Refer to Plain and Simple Logic.

You can, however, be said to approve of, support, and defer to the system that put that party in power and allows them to remain in power - even though you explicitly voted against them.
Refer to Plain and Simple Logic.

 

[ponder]

Quite frankly, if the government is not going to look after me, provide for me, supply me with food, clothing, housing, health care, education, services and security then what on earth do I need a government for?

So you wan't everything given to you? Somebody has to pay for that stuff.

They act all important and spend their time strutting about making rules and regulations and red tape and bureaucracy while wasting my money on cars and houses and travel and big salaries for themselves. If a government is not socialist, it's a waste of time and space and we would be much better off just leaving them out of the equation all together - let the private sector supply goods and services needed to efficiently run things and let the justice system deal with law and order and let the fat cat government officials go and do some real work instead of spending their time telling us how to live our lives and what we can and can't do without their approval.

This I could quite happily live with.

 

[RVQ]

Picture what you want. I'll vote for a socialist party that's not corrupt or I won't vote. I'm not going to support a party who is corrupt and neither will I support a party that doesn't represent me or my needs. Voting is a way for people to feel like they've made a difference while actually just handing all responsibility over to someone else and then sitting back and feeling smug about themselves for being so responsible.

Like it or not not voting means you've voted the current government into power, a price only you and your family will pay while you wait for boats to Utopia to arrive.

Just because I choose not to vote doesn't mean I do nothing. Voting isn't the be all and end all = it's mostly a convenience for those who wish to rule and need the appearance of legitimacy.

Correct, your lack of action only casts your vote for what the masses decide for you.

 

[Garson007]

You can, however, be said to approve of, support, and defer to the system that put that party in power and allows them to remain in power - even though you explicitly voted against them.
Refer to Plain and Simple Logic.

Nonsense. Again, there is nothing wrong with the process or electoral system.

 

[AlphaBravo]

To vote is a civil duty of each citizen in the civilised world, it is like paying taxes. You need to pay it so that the government can build the roads and pay the policeman etc. To vote is to do your civil duty even though you really don't want to. If you don't know who to vote for due to the fact that none of the parties suits your views then you have full right to start your own party. If you don't care about your civil duty then that says alot about your attitude towards this country. In the end it is not only about the political party and government but about the country we all want to live in.

 

[FlatspinZA]

I'm more aligned to socialist/communist policies - the DA is very pro-business, giving higher priority to the well being of corporations and business than of individuals. They are anti trade unions, pro labour brokers (even wanting to remove restrictions on labour brokers), etc, etc

Pure socialism or communism will simply not work in South Africa. That would be much worse than the current ANC government. If the mighty soviet empire couldn't pull it off, we certainly don't have a snowballs chance in hell.

Also, take a good look at the banyana states in the south of Europe and their utopian socialist ideals. No one contributes or wants to work (as in SA), and expects the government to keep supporting them no matter what. Today, most of the countries on the southern periphery are on the brink of collapse.

Capitalism has spawned the greatest middle class the world has ever seen, and continues to thrive (US of A). A capitalist economy is what uplifted hundreds of millions of Chinese out of abject poverty and has made them into the 2nd largest economy in just 2 decades.

Being pro business and anti union is the killer app. The recipe works, we just need to implement it.

And yes, I Vote DA.

I have to agree with KillerX here - being pro-business is the only way to go: make it easier for people to run businesses that reap rewards in terms of employment through growth.

I'm busy reading a book / autobiography by an old cold war spy, Gerard Ludi, called "The communistisation of the ANC" - you should really consider giving it a read. It's a very rude awakening to the reality of the "struggle".

We got taught this in the army - communism has always been in the ANC's core. Communism does nothing for anyone because there will always be the elite few controlling the masses, but then this is probably what the ANC wants, anyway.

 

[FlatspinZA]

since 1844 how many elections have been determined for 1 vote? Especially in a country with over 20million voters. Anyone who has done a bit of elementary probability would know that the chances of your vote changing the election is as good as you winning the lotto.

If you look at how close the recent US elections were, then you can see that every voted counted for both parties.

Every vote counts. If 5 million people abstain then that could have been 5 million individual votes going to another party. If every single person just votes following their brain/logic/common sense then it would make a big difference. Take emotion out of the equation.

So, what we need is massive abstention on the part of ANC voters, and the resolution of all those who are anti-ANC to at least vote for any other party, regardless of whether you believe in those other parties, or not.

 

[Sherbang]

Nonsense. Again, there is nothing wrong with the process or electoral system.

In your opinion.

Personally, I don't like the fact that I have to vote for a party rather than an individual, for example, it's wrong.
I might vote for the ANC because I like Mbeki only to have him removed and Zuma put in his place with no say from the voters whatsoever. Would Zuma still be president if people got to vote for individuals rather than parties? The political parties decide which candidates appear at what positions on their electoral lists and political parties therefore in effect decide who will represent voters in the various legislatures. This is wrong.

In some parties, even party members are never given a real choice - the selection of party candidates is done by an elite selection committee of party leaders (as is the case with the DA) - ordinary voters have almost no say in who would represent them in Parliament. You vote for the party and hope for the best. I think this is a problem with our electoral system.
It means that members of Parliament are not under any obligation to us voters at all! They are not independent in any way and have no incentive to listen to and respond to people in their constituencies. Instead they are under obligation to the party bosses who can tell them what to do, what to say, how to behave in the legislature, what Bills to vote for, etc. As these MP’s can be removed from Parliament if they do not behave as the party wishes, only the most brave or stupid MP's, who are not worried about their careers, will consistently act according to their conscience or the wishes of their constituents.

Another problem is that the majority party in the National Assembly gets to elects the President. If all parties receive less than 50% of the votes, a coalition of parties will have to agree on the election of a President. This means that ordinary voters never get the chance to vote for the President and for the executive, who only remains in the executive for as long as the party they belong to can muster a majority in the National Assembly.

There is plenty wrong with our electoral system, it's not the perfect system you seem to think it is.

 

[sox63]

I'm gonna be very rude here and say that is what is commonly known as 'K' psychology as everybody knows it. I'm not trying to offend anybody but that is simply what it is known as and the ANC uses it big time to their advantage. Why do people sell themselves for a packet of nicknacks or a R1 t-shirt, it's so frustrating.

I've never heard of this 'K' psychology, please elaborate?

 

[ponder]

In your opinion.

Personally, I don't like the fact that I have to vote for a party rather than an individual, for example, it's wrong.
I might vote for the ANC because I like Mbeki only to have him removed and Zuma put in his place with no say from the voters whatsoever. Would Zuma still be president if people got to vote for individuals rather than parties? The political parties decide which candidates appear at what positions on their electoral lists and political parties therefore in effect decide who will represent voters in the various legislatures. This is wrong.

In some parties, even party members are never given a real choice - the selection of party candidates is done by an elite selection committee of party leaders (as is the case with the DA) - ordinary voters have almost no say in who would represent them in Parliament. You vote for the party and hope for the best. I think this is a problem with our electoral system.
It means that members of Parliament are not under any obligation to us voters at all! They are not independent in any way and have no incentive to listen to and respond to people in their constituencies. Instead they are under obligation to the party bosses who can tell them what to do, what to say, how to behave in the legislature, what Bills to vote for, etc. As these MP’s can be removed from Parliament if they do not behave as the party wishes, only the most brave or stupid MP's, who are not worried about their careers, will consistently act according to their conscience or the wishes of their constituents.

Another problem is that the majority party in the National Assembly gets to elects the President. If all parties receive less than 50% of the votes, a coalition of parties will have to agree on the election of a President. This means that ordinary voters never get the chance to vote for the President and for the executive, who only remains in the executive for as long as the party they belong to can muster a majority in the National Assembly.

There is plenty wrong with our electoral system, it's not the perfect system you seem to think it is.

Yes that would be one flaw in my book another being 'floor crossing' if that's still allowed to happen.

 

[Garson007]

I've never heard of this 'K' psychology, please elaborate?

It's just Ponder being his usual racist self.

 

[Garson007]

There is plenty wrong with our electoral system, it's not the perfect system you seem to think it is.

It is nearest you have of a perfect system. USA, UK, Canada, Australia, Israel, Greece all have worse systems. I'd argue that our system is better than Germany too. The only thing I can think of that needs to be done is for the presidency to be split into a head of state and prime minister. The latter of which is still in control of government and still voted in by the assembly. The former of which would be voted in by the population.

Constituencies shouldn't matter on a national or provincial level. They are not there to represent their communities. They are there to represent the country/province and it's ideological demographics. On a municipal level politicians should represent their constituency and that's why we vote them in with a mixed system.

There is absolutely nothing wrong with voting for a party, it is superior to voting for a person. 1) minorities can never be represented in a FPTP system; 2) politicians are in the pockets of conglomerates; 3) national interests are side-swiped for local ones. Think ANC has lots of control now? If they had a FPTP system the ANC would fill like 80% of the legislature. More importantly ideologies cannot be represented on a national level as all it will be is a number of individuals supporting their constituent majority. Ever heard of political pork? Yeah, the USA has been fighting it for decades with no success.

Intra-party politics is exactly that. It has got nothing - absolutely nothing - to do with the political system. If ANC does not represent you then you go to another party. The problem there is the ANC and the DA, not the system.

The elected assembly of course needs to decide who should run the government. You are not qualified to make that call.

Edit: I'm also not sure that a party can remove members from parliament. Show me some proof of this. If it is true, then yes that is a concern that needs fixing.

 

[LazyLion]

You can, however, be said to approve of, support, and defer to the system that put that party in power and allows them to remain in power - even though you explicitly voted against them.
Refer to Plain and Simple Logic.

No you can't. That would be utterly stupid and completely illogical.
I was using the system for one goal, to put MY party in power.
I was not using it to put anybody else in power, that was never my goal or intention, and the fact remains that I do not want them in power.
So how does that legitimise the system? You are just trying to play loose and fast with words and semantics here, and completely failing at it.

What you are trying to say is that because I also breathe, I am a murderer, because murderers also breathe.
I am legitimising murder, because I choose to use the same breathing system that murderers use.
See how utterly stupid and ludicrous that is?

Doesn't surprise me though, cos you guys are the ones who are holding your breath and refusing to breathe.
The resulting brain damage is therefore not at all unsurprising.

 

[ponder]

I've never heard of this 'K' psychology, please elaborate?

Well the K stands for the derogatory K word. It's a term I've heard used where you give something small & insignificant to a person and get a lot in return. Settlers brought vast pieces of land with a pouch of tobacco, political parties will buy votes with a t-shirt. You give people something no matter how small and they feel they 'owe' you in return. Not a word/term I endorse or use but have heard it many a time, even from black folk ie "That 'k' psycology does not work on me".

 

[sox63]

Well the K stands for the derogatory K word. It's a term I've heard used where you give something small & insignificant to a person and get a lot in return. Settlers brought vast pieces of land with a pouch of tobacco, political parties will buy votes with a t-shirt. You give people something no matter how small and they feel they 'owe' you in return. Not a word/term I endorse or use but have heard it many a time, even from black folk ie "That 'k' psycology does not work on me".

Well your racist social circles aside, you misunderstood what I posted completely. I was talking about EFFORT in elections. And simply the ANC does not have to do a lot because of the liberation movement. By the way, the ANC has been promising anything but "small" things to the general voting public, unless you consider free housing small in your warped racist brain.

 

[ponder]

I suspect my post got completely misinterpreted, oh well.