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VW "Monkeygate" scandal
- Thread starter phoenix99
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HAL 9000
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MonkeyGate 2.0 - this time, with even more spanking. And who’s really responsible? That’s next.
Let’s get right into it now, with Bill Tran:
"Not trying to let VW off the hook but it appears that this ‘study’ was conducted by an independent laboratory commissioned by VW, Daimler, BMW and Bosch. For all the **** committed by VW, in this case they shouldn’t be solely to blame."
Many of you brought this up after my initial report, two days ago. Link to that at the end of this video. Thank you for commenting… we do need to address BMW and Daimler.
All three companies were complicit in MonkeyGate - but the key questions are: exactly what did they do, and what did they know? The German big three funded an independent quasi-research agency, which commissioned the Monkeygate tests, and Volkswagen certainly knew what was happening. The other two - maybe not.
The Washington Post says:
“Daimler and BMW said they had no knowledge of the Volkswagen-led study.”
But The Guardian says a group of industry observers claim:
"...the experiments had been well-documented and the results presented to managers at BMW, Daimler and VW."
I’d suggest denying you knew is a very dangerous card to play in the domain of damage control - if you are in fact guilty of knowing. Eventually the truth comes out.
If you’re Mercedes-Benz or BMW, and you knew about MonkeyGate, when it happened, you can say you are shocked, you might be able to claim you didn’t give it the green light.
You can say animal cruelty is abhorrent to you. But denying it (if you knew) is just stupid.
Big secrets don’t withstand scrutiny. It’ll just be Monica Lewinsky all over again, in a sense, playing another rousing chorus of ‘oh say can you see’ on the pink presidential flute.
The New York Times said:
“Volkswagen took a lead role in the study.”
This story blew up as a result of revelations from a lawsuit against Volkswagen - so the reports you read are based on admissible evidence and statements made under oath. There’s no debate about whether the monkey tests happened.
This is from Reuters:
"Volkswagen said that some staff members, whom it did not identify, including some in its legal department, at the VW brand’s technical development division and at Volkswagen of America, were aware of the tests at the time."
On the balance of probabilities - we know that Volkswagen knew the monkeys were being gassed in the name of bull**** spin. No definitive word on the other two - but likely.
We know that several years ago, Volkswagen, BMW and Mercedes-Benz colluded with the intention of gaming the system. Bosch was in it too, but they dropped out before MonkeyGate.
You could call this activity ‘lobbying’, but that makes it sound far too clean. They actually set up an authoritative-sounding fake research agency designed to produce quasi-scientific bull**** propaganda.
It was called the EUGT, from the German expression for European Research Group on Environment and Health in the Transport Sector. Let’s just say they weren’t in it for the altruistic pursuit of science. Quite the opposite.
It was all about influencing regulators and pumping up the profit. They went ahead and built a mini-monkey Auschwitz, and fired it up, apparently without a care in the world. It’s contemptible.
There was nothing probative to learn from this depraved activity. Human health was not investigated. This was just about propaganda - like the tobacco industry doing so-called ‘research’ on cigarette smoke. Therefore it was unethical and abhorrent.
Real scientists wouldn’t touch the monkey experiment, which was so spectacularly dodgy they couldn’t even get it published.
[video=youtube;s_8QAoYE1OU]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=s_8QAoYE1OU[/video]
Let’s get right into it now, with Bill Tran:
"Not trying to let VW off the hook but it appears that this ‘study’ was conducted by an independent laboratory commissioned by VW, Daimler, BMW and Bosch. For all the **** committed by VW, in this case they shouldn’t be solely to blame."
Many of you brought this up after my initial report, two days ago. Link to that at the end of this video. Thank you for commenting… we do need to address BMW and Daimler.
All three companies were complicit in MonkeyGate - but the key questions are: exactly what did they do, and what did they know? The German big three funded an independent quasi-research agency, which commissioned the Monkeygate tests, and Volkswagen certainly knew what was happening. The other two - maybe not.
The Washington Post says:
“Daimler and BMW said they had no knowledge of the Volkswagen-led study.”
But The Guardian says a group of industry observers claim:
"...the experiments had been well-documented and the results presented to managers at BMW, Daimler and VW."
I’d suggest denying you knew is a very dangerous card to play in the domain of damage control - if you are in fact guilty of knowing. Eventually the truth comes out.
If you’re Mercedes-Benz or BMW, and you knew about MonkeyGate, when it happened, you can say you are shocked, you might be able to claim you didn’t give it the green light.
You can say animal cruelty is abhorrent to you. But denying it (if you knew) is just stupid.
Big secrets don’t withstand scrutiny. It’ll just be Monica Lewinsky all over again, in a sense, playing another rousing chorus of ‘oh say can you see’ on the pink presidential flute.
The New York Times said:
“Volkswagen took a lead role in the study.”
This story blew up as a result of revelations from a lawsuit against Volkswagen - so the reports you read are based on admissible evidence and statements made under oath. There’s no debate about whether the monkey tests happened.
This is from Reuters:
"Volkswagen said that some staff members, whom it did not identify, including some in its legal department, at the VW brand’s technical development division and at Volkswagen of America, were aware of the tests at the time."
On the balance of probabilities - we know that Volkswagen knew the monkeys were being gassed in the name of bull**** spin. No definitive word on the other two - but likely.
We know that several years ago, Volkswagen, BMW and Mercedes-Benz colluded with the intention of gaming the system. Bosch was in it too, but they dropped out before MonkeyGate.
You could call this activity ‘lobbying’, but that makes it sound far too clean. They actually set up an authoritative-sounding fake research agency designed to produce quasi-scientific bull**** propaganda.
It was called the EUGT, from the German expression for European Research Group on Environment and Health in the Transport Sector. Let’s just say they weren’t in it for the altruistic pursuit of science. Quite the opposite.
It was all about influencing regulators and pumping up the profit. They went ahead and built a mini-monkey Auschwitz, and fired it up, apparently without a care in the world. It’s contemptible.
There was nothing probative to learn from this depraved activity. Human health was not investigated. This was just about propaganda - like the tobacco industry doing so-called ‘research’ on cigarette smoke. Therefore it was unethical and abhorrent.
Real scientists wouldn’t touch the monkey experiment, which was so spectacularly dodgy they couldn’t even get it published.
[video=youtube;s_8QAoYE1OU]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=s_8QAoYE1OU[/video]
Rouxenator
Dank meme lord
FiestaST
Honorary Master
Volkswagen, BMW and Daimler diesel monkey tests: brands have 'blood on their hands'
German manufacturers admitted to financing a study that was designed to prove emissions were lower by forcing animals to breathe in exhaust fumes
Volkswagen, BMW and Daimler have "blood on their hands" because of the deaths caused by excessive nitrogen oxide emissions from diesel cars, a former government scientist has said.
In the week that followed news of a diesel fume test that involved caged monkeys, Sir David King, who was the UK Government’s chief scientific adviser until 2007, said that the number of fatalities caused by NOx emissions produced by cars in Britain "is really very, very large" - and that even he wasn't aware of the gravity of the situation until recently.
His comments came in response to fresh details of a diesel test that was organised by the European Research Group on Environment and Health in the Transport Sector (EUGT), which was an organisation established by the trio of German car manufacturers along with parts supplier Bosch, that forced monkeys to breathe in exhaust emissions to illustrate that modern diesel cars are far cleaner than their predecessors.
The monkey test took place in New Mexico, US, in 2014, a year before the Volkswagen dieselgate scandal broke. The EUGT folded before the results of the test could be compiled.
Volkswagen has since suspended its chief lobbyist Thomas Steg for leading the tests. He said he "takes full responsibility".
Daimler stated that it is “appalled by the extent of the studies and their implementation”, while Volkswagen chairman Hans Dieter Pötsch said the tests were "totally incomprehensible" and that the incident must be "investigated fully and unconditionally”. BMW said it wasn't part of the study and that it has launched an internal investigation "to thoroughly clarify the work and background of the EUGT".
Reports suggest other tests were carried out with humans prior to the monkey test, but that they involved inhalation of nitrogen dioxide (NO2), which is commonly associated with diesel engines, rather than exhaust fumes.
Steffen Seibert, spokesman for German chancellor Angela Merkel, said that "these tests on monkeys or even humans cannot be justified ethically in any way".
In the year that followed the monkey fumes test, Volkswagen’s use of emissions cheating devices was brought to light. The Dieselgate scandal has since led to changes to regulatory emissions tests, helping to create the new Real Driving Emissions tests.
https://www.autocar.co.uk/car-news/...el-monkey-tests-brands-have-blood-their-hands
German manufacturers admitted to financing a study that was designed to prove emissions were lower by forcing animals to breathe in exhaust fumes
Volkswagen, BMW and Daimler have "blood on their hands" because of the deaths caused by excessive nitrogen oxide emissions from diesel cars, a former government scientist has said.
In the week that followed news of a diesel fume test that involved caged monkeys, Sir David King, who was the UK Government’s chief scientific adviser until 2007, said that the number of fatalities caused by NOx emissions produced by cars in Britain "is really very, very large" - and that even he wasn't aware of the gravity of the situation until recently.
His comments came in response to fresh details of a diesel test that was organised by the European Research Group on Environment and Health in the Transport Sector (EUGT), which was an organisation established by the trio of German car manufacturers along with parts supplier Bosch, that forced monkeys to breathe in exhaust emissions to illustrate that modern diesel cars are far cleaner than their predecessors.
The monkey test took place in New Mexico, US, in 2014, a year before the Volkswagen dieselgate scandal broke. The EUGT folded before the results of the test could be compiled.
Volkswagen has since suspended its chief lobbyist Thomas Steg for leading the tests. He said he "takes full responsibility".
Daimler stated that it is “appalled by the extent of the studies and their implementation”, while Volkswagen chairman Hans Dieter Pötsch said the tests were "totally incomprehensible" and that the incident must be "investigated fully and unconditionally”. BMW said it wasn't part of the study and that it has launched an internal investigation "to thoroughly clarify the work and background of the EUGT".
Reports suggest other tests were carried out with humans prior to the monkey test, but that they involved inhalation of nitrogen dioxide (NO2), which is commonly associated with diesel engines, rather than exhaust fumes.
Steffen Seibert, spokesman for German chancellor Angela Merkel, said that "these tests on monkeys or even humans cannot be justified ethically in any way".
In the year that followed the monkey fumes test, Volkswagen’s use of emissions cheating devices was brought to light. The Dieselgate scandal has since led to changes to regulatory emissions tests, helping to create the new Real Driving Emissions tests.
https://www.autocar.co.uk/car-news/...el-monkey-tests-brands-have-blood-their-hands
Rouxenator
Dank meme lord
Yes, rather buy something that, while it still was German, did not do this and just got upgraded to French status.
FiestaST
Honorary Master
VW hid 'devastating' monkey test result: report
Volkswagen tried to hide the results of a diesel emissions test on monkeys because it showed a worse health impact than expected, a German news report claimed on Wednesday.
The Bild daily reported that the exhaust fumes tests on 10 monkeys that have sparked fresh public outrage following VW's emissions-cheating scandal "were never supposed to come to light" because the results were "too devastating".
Amid a storm of criticism over the experiment and over separate tests on German human volunteers commissioned by an auto industry-financed research institute, VW on Tuesday suspended its chief lobbyist Thomas Steg and labelled the testing "unethical and repulsive".
The US study using monkeys in an Albuquerque laboratory, which VW said took place in 2015, was meant to show that the diesel exhaust fumes from a VW Beetle were cleaner than those from an older Ford pickup.
"This was not what the results showed at all, however," reported Bild, citing internal study papers, despite the fact that the VW model had been fitted with a so-called defeat device that reduced emissions while testing.
The Bild report said that after four hours of exposure, blood was taken from the animals and a special endoscope was inserted into their windpipes and bronchia through their noses or mouths.
It said some of the monkeys that had inhaled VW fumes showed a higher degree of inflammation than other animals.
The human and animal tests were commissioned by an organisation funded by VW, Daimler and BMW, the European Research Group on Environment and Health in the Transport Sector, which has since been disbanded.
https://www.iol.co.za/motoring/industry-news/vw-hid-devastating-monkey-test-result-report-13033301
Volkswagen tried to hide the results of a diesel emissions test on monkeys because it showed a worse health impact than expected, a German news report claimed on Wednesday.
The Bild daily reported that the exhaust fumes tests on 10 monkeys that have sparked fresh public outrage following VW's emissions-cheating scandal "were never supposed to come to light" because the results were "too devastating".
Amid a storm of criticism over the experiment and over separate tests on German human volunteers commissioned by an auto industry-financed research institute, VW on Tuesday suspended its chief lobbyist Thomas Steg and labelled the testing "unethical and repulsive".
The US study using monkeys in an Albuquerque laboratory, which VW said took place in 2015, was meant to show that the diesel exhaust fumes from a VW Beetle were cleaner than those from an older Ford pickup.
"This was not what the results showed at all, however," reported Bild, citing internal study papers, despite the fact that the VW model had been fitted with a so-called defeat device that reduced emissions while testing.
The Bild report said that after four hours of exposure, blood was taken from the animals and a special endoscope was inserted into their windpipes and bronchia through their noses or mouths.
It said some of the monkeys that had inhaled VW fumes showed a higher degree of inflammation than other animals.
The human and animal tests were commissioned by an organisation funded by VW, Daimler and BMW, the European Research Group on Environment and Health in the Transport Sector, which has since been disbanded.
https://www.iol.co.za/motoring/industry-news/vw-hid-devastating-monkey-test-result-report-13033301
FiestaST
Honorary Master
Watched this...hectic stuff
Willy Strong
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No. They rigged the software for all the affected cars to give a different reading from testing in a lab against testing on an open road.
Rouxenator
Dank meme lord
No, not scandal Scandals. Plural. VW has been embroiled is many, many scandals.
Adenoid Hynkel
Executive Member
There are dozens of comapnies that still exist today that had ties with the Nazi movement. Products some of us use daily (Bayer to name one, which makes VW look like an angel). You drink fanta? Oh damn. Go have a look who created it. You wear puma or addidas clothes or shoes?
This is only news because Hitler teamed up with Ferdinand to design the beetle and due to Auschwitz. How convenient.
Strictly speaking, any car that left the Volkswagenwerk AG after 1949 was not built by a Nazi. After WW2 VW AG started under British occupation.
This is only news because Hitler teamed up with Ferdinand to design the beetle and due to Auschwitz. How convenient.
Strictly speaking, any car that left the Volkswagenwerk AG after 1949 was not built by a Nazi. After WW2 VW AG started under British occupation.
Ai. You do know Opel manufactured trucks. The Opel Blitz was a one tonner and was used to transport not just goods from A to B.
Rouxenator
Dank meme lord
They did not gas any monkeys though.
SauRoNZA
Honorary Master
I don't see the problem here.
It's a simple necessary evil.
Would people rather have it go untested and released on the population at large only to figure 50 years from now it was a bad idea?
Look where that got us historically.
It's a simple necessary evil.
Would people rather have it go untested and released on the population at large only to figure 50 years from now it was a bad idea?
Look where that got us historically.
SauRoNZA
Honorary Master
Of course they did and still do.
Along with hundreds of millions of people and other animals.
And we wouldn't know that if someone didn't test it at some point.
We get it, you don't like VW, but don't get illogical about it.
Even the documentary in question didn't really make any fuss about the animal testing and that's because it really shouldn't.
Last edited:
C4Cat
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What is a necessary evil, torturing animals or faking the results?
SauRoNZA
Honorary Master
C4Cat
Honorary Master
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The faking of results is the actual scandal here though.
Torturing innocent animals is pretty normal business practice for companies engaged in research
Rouxenator
Dank meme lord
No, both are VW issues.
f2wohf
Honorary Master
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Mercedes and BMW also had/have defeat devices in their vehicles and were part of the same test on monkeys since it was performed by a company co-owned by the three companies.