We are now heading back into the cold war

Stickfigure

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Thanks BTTB :)

Either way, even though Putin is prime minister and Medvedev is president, it's not that hard to see that Putin is still calling the shots.

Also Russia being the super power they are, they do whatever the fsck they want. Just look at Georgia and South Ossetia, one day peace the next day war.

So basically, don't let the Russian bear growl :/
 

Sackboy

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They don't acknowledge doing anything WRONG, even now.
For them, the Great Patriotic War began in 1941 but they started WW2 in 1939 and entered the war on the side of the Axis powers.

Poland lost 21% of its population in WW2. That's numerically NOT AS MANY people as Russia lost but Russia did not loose all these people to Germany.
Stalin and his commissars were brutal. The casualties caused by their actions and the mistreatment of RUssian soldiers and civilians by the Soviet authorities may never be known but many historians believe that a good percentage of those WW2 RUssian (and other Soviet citizen deaths) was due to indiscriminate and ruthless behaviour such as punitive battalions, a no retreat policy, execution or deportation to the gulags of 'rescued' captured Soviet soldiers etc.

At the end the Soviet Union perpetrated many crimes against it's own citizens and it may be that the Nazis are getting too much blame for the numerical death counts in the Soviet Union. However, as said Poland lost
21% of it's pre-War population to WW2. That's the greatest percentage of casualties out of any country in World War II. A fair number of those deaths was due to the Soviet Union. After they war the Soviet Union carried out cleansing purges against the intelligentsia, partisans and ex soldiers returning from the Western Front. They also kept many of the Nazi concentration camps for political prisoners.

The belief that the Soviet Union and it's successor Russia did nothing wrong in WW2 is what is driving many of the tensions. The Russian people do not understand the degree of murder their old government caused in both the SU and beyond. Russia and SU were Nazi collaborators in WW2 but sadly got off scott free. Not-one of the killers who handed Russian and Polish Jews to
Nazis or executed Polish citizens was ever brought to trial.

In Germany the people have realised they did a lot of bad things under Hitler. Subsequent generations feel bad over Hitler. They feel regret and feel guilty.
In Russia there is none of that. They don't feel guilty or bad because they don't even know how much suffering they caused.

I can understand the US haters liking RUssia. However they should realise that Russia does its best to oppress Muslims too, just look at Chechnya
and what they did before in Afghanistan.

Finally Russia did not win WW2 on it's own. There were other soldiers fighting alongside Russian soldiers and even more importantly, Russia received a lot
of aid from the United States. They also left the US in the lurch to fight Japan alone while they moved their Siberian troops westwards to defend against Hitler.
Russia would have been defeated if USA did not help them and the Japanese had not signed an armistice with them and instead tied their soldiers
down in the east. Hitler was very close to capturing Moscow.
Who are you referring to?? RUSSIA is NOT the SOVIET UNION. That changed years ago, yet you seem to use the two indiscriminately - in fact you use whichever description suits your point. You can whine all you want and twist the history of the Soviets from a Polish perspective, but it just isn't that relevant. In fact, Poland was part of the Soviet Union, so maybe we should blame them as well!?

There are new leaders in power, a new generation of democratic/captialistic people. Fortunately, they are very clever people. Yes, the KGB doesn't employ dummies, so that's a good thing. President George Bush was CIA director, so the same reasoning applies.

You also mention Chechnya. That republic was one of the first bastions of Islamic fundamentalism, before the 9/11 era. That should be remembered. Even that has been resolved to a certain extent, though it once again suits your argument to flag it as "Muslim oppression". In fact, there are signs of prosperity and inward investment. There are massive ($5 BILLION) reconstruction projects on the go, even a huge mosque. Russia has a vast number of Muslim citizens (20 MILLION), and doesn't want deliberately to oppress them. A Chechnan battalion fought WITH the Russians against Georgia a few months ago, which you also mentioned before, but seem to want to forget now when making this point.

Again you fill your posts with old history. Russia did receive aid from the Allied forces, but it was in return for bolstering their fight against the Nazis. Someone had to crew the tanks, fire the weapons. It was an extremely useful distraction for Churchill and co. Whilst the Nazis were busy in the East, the Allies had less to contend with in Europe and the Med.

If you're somehow thinking the Russians were soft on Japan, then think again. In your previous post you mention the disputed islands off Japan. It may be interesting to note that Russia never signed a peace treaty to end World War II!!! In fact, their dispute about the islands goes way back to 1855.

No other allied nation signed a non-aggression pact with Nazi Germany and actively colluded with the Nazis in the breakup and invasion of a sovereign country. (Poland)



It wouldn't break an agreement if they just don't renew the lease, it would just be not concluding a new agreement. Its not daft to want a hostile foreign power to vacate your sovereign territory.



They may be marginalised but Russia's actions don't exactly help. Look what they did in Georgia and other disputed territories when they hand out Russian passports to Russian speakers and then act on the pretext of protecting their citizens. Russian nationalists have often called for the annexation of Crimea and Sevastopol so you can't blame the Ukrainians for not embracing them with open arms.



Either way its pretty clear Medvedev is merely a puppet and Putin still controls Russia.



He called the Soviet Union's collapse "the greatest geopolitical catastrophe of the century", which hardly sounds like an endorsement.
You must be referring to the Molotov–Ribbentrop Pact ...

wiki said:
The Molotov–Ribbentrop Pact, colloquially named after Soviet foreign minister Vyacheslav Molotov and German foreign minister Joachim von Ribbentrop, was an agreement officially entitled the Treaty of Non-aggression between Germany and the Union of Soviet Socialist Republics, signed in Moscow in the early hours of August 24, 1939, dated August 23[1], that renounced warfare between the two countries and pledged neutrality by either party if the other were attacked by a third party. Each signatory promised not to join any grouping of powers that was “directly or indirectly aimed at the other party”. The Pact is known by a number of different titles. These include the Nazi–Soviet Pact, Hitler–Stalin Pact, German–Soviet Non-aggression Pact and sometimes as the Nazi–Soviet Alliance[2]. It remained in effect until Nazi Germany invaded the Soviet Union on June 22, 1941 in Operation Barbarossa.
Seems that Germany broke the pact by invading in 1941, bringing the Soviets into the war. It sounded like a good idea to me for a country to remain neutral. Switzerland also remained neutral. I don't see you scolding them. Neither do you mention the Western policy of appeasement taking place at the same time. Which is worse??

Either way, even though Putin is prime minister and Medvedev is president, it's not that hard to see that Putin is still calling the shots.

Also Russia being the super power they are, they do whatever the fsck they want. Just look at Georgia and South Ossetia, one day peace the next day war.

So basically, don't let the Russian bear growl :/
Can you give me an example of this or is it merely conjecture?
In case you wondered, Georgia invaded South Ossetia after some extensive training by the US. So who growled first?

What does the US spend on arms? why does this make headlines?
"US military expenditure now accounts for almost half of the world total. "
http://www.globalissues.org/article/75/world-military-spending
That's $711 BILLION.
Compare this to Russia @ $70 Billion and China @ $121 Billion, UK $55B
 

Syndyre

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Who are you referring to?? RUSSIA is NOT the SOVIET UNION. That changed years ago, yet you seem to use the two indiscriminately - in fact you use whichever description suits your point. You can whine all you want and twist the history of the Soviets from a Polish perspective, but it just isn't that relevant. In fact, Poland was part of the Soviet Union, so maybe we should blame them as well!?

Russia is the successor to the USSR, its the Soviet Union without some of its parts but it took e.g. the Soviet Union's UN security council seat etc. so its not much of a stretch to refer to them as one and the same.

Poland was one of the Warsaw Pact countries but it wasn't part of the Soviet Union. It wasn't exactly a voluntary member either.

There are new leaders in power, a new generation of democratic/captialistic people. Fortunately, they are very clever people. Yes, the KGB doesn't employ dummies, so that's a good thing. President George Bush was CIA director, so the same reasoning applies

Putin's hardly a democrat, I wouldn't really call him a capitalist either. He's not communist but he's far from laissez-faire in his ideology, seems closer to the fascist corporatism.

You must be referring to the Molotov–Ribbentrop Pact ...


Seems that Germany broke the pact by invading in 1941, bringing the Soviets into the war. It sounded like a good idea to me for a country to remain neutral. Switzerland also remained neutral. I don't see you scolding them. Neither do you mention the Western policy of appeasement taking place at the same time. Which is worse??

I am. It wasn't a pure neutrality pact though, from the wiki link you posted:

Wikipedia said:
In addition to stipulations of non-aggression, the treaty included a secret protocol dividing the independent countries of Finland, Estonia, Latvia, Lithuania, Poland, and Romania into Nazi and Soviet spheres of influence, anticipating "territorial and political rearrangements" of these countries' territories. All were subsequently invaded, occupied, or forced to cede territory by Nazi Germany, the Soviet Union, or both. Only Finland was able to defend herself against the (Soviet) invasion and remained an independent Western democracy.

It was essentially an alliance by another name. I'd condemn both Switzerland's and Chamberlain's "peace in our time" actions but that isn't really the topic of this thread so I didn't mention it. I wouldn't say they're on the same scale as the USSR's though.
 

Xarog

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It was essentially an alliance by another name. I'd condemn both Switzerland's and Chamberlain's "peace in our time" actions but that isn't really the topic of this thread so I didn't mention it. I wouldn't say they're on the same scale as the USSR's though.
No, if you're going to start blaming people, blame the allies at the end of the first world war for creating conditions at the end of the war that guaranteed the existence of ww2. Wilson's reaction to the Treaty of Versailles was absolutely spot-on.
 

LoneGunman

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Nice to see some informative argument going on here, given that it started as yet another of marine1's usual anti-commie (or 'anti-Islam') type threads...

Just to add some complexity to some of the very interesting arguments here - I'm not sure if folks noticed this news item from a few days ago - suggesting that Gen Patton was assassinated by the US military.

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/wor...sm-of-allied-war-leaders-claims-new-book.html

For those who don't know what it means - Patton was heading straight for Berlin (and perhaps into Russia as well), and if he hadnt died - he would have got to Berlin ahead of the Soviets - so at the very least, if Patton hadn't died/been killed, there'd be no east-west Berlin issues, no checkpoint charlie, no Berlin wall - and the history of the Cold War might have been very different indeed...
 

Syndyre

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No, if you're going to start blaming people, blame the allies at the end of the first world war for creating conditions at the end of the war that guaranteed the existence of ww2. Wilson's reaction to the Treaty of Versailles was absolutely spot-on.

Versailles was a mistake but perhaps more of a mistake was negotiating a treaty at all, rather than insisting on unconditional surrender, thereby allowing Hitler to perpetuate the myth that the army was "stabbed in the back" by politicians etc. Of course if it wasn't for the great depression Versailles wouldn't have been as much of an issue. Its always easy to criticise with hindsight.
 

Syndyre

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Nice to see some informative argument going on here, given that it started as yet another of marine1's usual anti-commie (or 'anti-Islam') type threads...

Just to add some complexity to some of the very interesting arguments here - I'm not sure if folks noticed this news item from a few days ago - suggesting that Gen Patton was assassinated by the US military.

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/wor...sm-of-allied-war-leaders-claims-new-book.html

For those who don't know what it means - Patton was heading straight for Berlin (and perhaps into Russia as well), and if he hadnt died - he would have got to Berlin ahead of the Soviets - so at the very least, if Patton hadn't died/been killed, there'd be no east-west Berlin issues, no checkpoint charlie, no Berlin wall - and the history of the Cold War might have been very different indeed...

I saw that article, it was interesting but I wouldn't call it conclusive. Assuming he was assassinated though and it was done to stop the Allies from reaching Berlin before the Soviets, what would be the benefit to them, why would they do it?
 

JHatman

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I saw that article, it was interesting but I wouldn't call it conclusive. Assuming he was assassinated though and it was done to stop the Allies from reaching Berlin before the Soviets, what would be the benefit to them, why would they do it?

What the Nazi's did in Russia on the inward and outward march was nothing short of genocide. They rounded up and slaughtered hundreds of thousands of Russian civilians. I'm not sure where I saw the figures, try google them, but Russia lost more civilians than another other country in WW2.

There are many historical encounters of Russian soldiers raping German women and killing German men and boys on the advance towards Berlin. This was more than political, it was justice for decades of wrong. Germany betrayed Russia in both WWI and WW2, and both times they were left with a devasted country.

While the winter set in over Stalingrad and German troops were holed up in foxholes and cellars awaiting supplies that would never arrive, Russian had pulled back far east of Moscow and had set up emergancy factory's to build weapons. Every man, woman and able child was put to labour with one goal in mind, to finally crush and destroy Germany for good. Their factory's worked 24 hours a day pumping out equipment and munition, they became as much obsessed as Hitler was.

Moscow wanted more than anything to raise the flag above Reichstadt, to say, we have smashed you once and for all, and let the whole world bear witness to this.
 

Syndyre

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What the Nazi's did in Russia on the inward and outward march was nothing short of genocide. They rounded up and slaughtered hundreds of thousands of Russian civilians. I'm not sure where I saw the figures, try google them, but Russia lost more civilians than another other country in WW2.

There are many historical encounters of Russian soldiers raping German women and killing German men and boys on the advance towards Berlin. This was more than political, it was justice for decades of wrong. Germany betrayed Russia in both WWI and WW2, and both times they were left with a devasted country.

While the winter set in over Stalingrad and German troops were holed up in foxholes and cellars awaiting supplies that would never arrive, Russian had pulled back far east of Moscow and had set up emergancy factory's to build weapons. Every man, woman and able child was put to labour with one goal in mind, to finally crush and destroy Germany for good. Their factory's worked 24 hours a day pumping out equipment and munition, they became as much obsessed as Hitler was.

Moscow wanted more than anything to raise the flag above Reichstadt, to say, we have smashed you once and for all, and let the whole world bear witness to this.

I won't argue with any of that except that I wouldn't call raping women and killing civilians 'justice'. The question remains, why would the Western Allies allow Russia the chance to take Berlin if they could've done it themselves?
 

JHatman

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I won't argue with any of that except that I wouldn't call raping women and killing civilians 'justice'. The question remains, why would the Western Allies allow Russia the chance to take Berlin if they could've done it themselves?

31 January 1943 General Paulas surrenders to the Russians. Normandy was invaded in June 1944.

As the Allied forces were pushing from the West, Hitler poured every last resource he had into a massive offensive designed to quickly crush the Allied forces know as the Ardennes Offensive, 16 December 1944 – 25 January 1945

Hitler realised he had lost the Easter Offensive, and decided to try and capitalise on extremely bad weather between 16 December 1944 – 25 January 1945, since at this point air superiority belonged the the Allies, however, since they could not operate, German forces on the ground were picking US and British forces apart.

However, once the weather cleared up, it was finished. Allied aircraft tore his army to pieces.

Allied forces faced so many obstacles on the March to Berlin, much more than Russia's advance toward Berlin.

In my view, the Allied forces would've reached Berlin long before Russia had it not been for the Russian winter which stopped Hitler in his tracks.

To say the Allied Forces allowed Russia to reach Berlin first is far from the truth. They realised what Russia would do, how it would lay claim to huge swathes of territory, and that, coupled with the knowledge that the Russia had now already become a nuclear power, would mean that another war to drive them back was simply out of the question.
 

bodhi

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Cold War never ended between the US and Russia with the fall of communism - to try and make friends after 40+ years of intense rivalry is kind of silly...
 

CyraxHB

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I won't argue with any of that except that I wouldn't call raping women and killing civilians 'justice'. The question remains, why would the Western Allies allow Russia the chance to take Berlin if they could've done it themselves?

Probably because they knew they would take massive losses while fighting fanatic germans defending the city. Easier to let the russians deal with that.

Also, to avoid any possible confrontation with russian troops whose only goal was to crush the city. Russia and the west were not exactly on friendly terms.
 

Syndyre

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31 January 1943 General Paulas surrenders to the Russians. Normandy was invaded in June 1944.

As the Allied forces were pushing from the West, Hitler poured every last resource he had into a massive offensive designed to quickly crush the Allied forces know as the Ardennes Offensive, 16 December 1944 – 25 January 1945

Hitler realised he had lost the Easter Offensive, and decided to try and capitalise on extremely bad weather between 16 December 1944 – 25 January 1945, since at this point air superiority belonged the the Allies, however, since they could not operate, German forces on the ground were picking US and British forces apart.

However, once the weather cleared up, it was finished. Allied aircraft tore his army to pieces.

Allied forces faced so many obstacles on the March to Berlin, much more than Russia's advance toward Berlin.

In my view, the Allied forces would've reached Berlin long before Russia had it not been for the Russian winter which stopped Hitler in his tracks.

To say the Allied Forces allowed Russia to reach Berlin first is far from the truth. They realised what Russia would do, how it would lay claim to huge swathes of territory, and that, coupled with the knowledge that the Russia had now already become a nuclear power, would mean that another war to drive them back was simply out of the question.

Maybe I'm missing something but how would the Russian winter have slowed down the Allies advance from the west? Also, Russia didn't have nukes in 1945?

Otherwise agreed.
 

JHatman

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Maybe I'm missing something but how would the Russian winter have slowed down the Allies advance from the west? Also, Russia didn't have nukes in 1945?

Otherwise agreed.

In my view, the Allied forces would've reached Berlin long before Russia had it not been for the Russian winter which stopped Hitler in his tracks.

Hitler's plan was to crush Stalingrad before the winter, however his forces got bogged down by fierce resistance, and eventually overcome by the cold and lack of supplies. This gave the Russians the advantage they needed to capitulate Berlin. Without that advantage, the Allies might well have reached Berlin first.

Russia was in possession of nuclear technology, as was the US. The first US nuclear test was 4 months before the end of conflict with Japan.

I'll try to link my sources once I come back from Xmas dinner hehe but from what I've read, both US and Russia realised that each was in possession of nuclear technology but neither had sufficient information as to how they could use it, thus they both were dubious to get embroiled in a war with each other in Europe.
 

Syndyre

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Hitler's plan was to crush Stalingrad before the winter, however his forces got bogged down by fierce resistance, and eventually overcome by the cold and lack of supplies. This gave the Russians the advantage they needed to capitulate Berlin. Without that advantage, the Allies might well have reached Berlin first.

Russia was in possession of nuclear technology, as was the US. The first US nuclear test was 4 months before the end of conflict with Japan.

I'll try to link my sources once I come back from Xmas dinner hehe but from what I've read, both US and Russia realised that each was in possession of nuclear technology but neither had sufficient information as to how they could use it, thus they both were dubious to get embroiled in a war with each other in Europe.

Makes sense. The Russians only first tested nukes in 1949 though? I suppose the US couldn't have known with certainty how far along they were, not something you want to take a chance with.
 

PeterCH

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Leaving out ...

Ancient history would imply history prior to the Common Era (CE).
We're dealing essentially with modern history - since the 1700s.

We're also dealing with issues that Russian people find offensive in relations
to their western counterparts and that Russian politicians have been able to exploit. To this day, and I challenge you to ask any Russian person you know in SA, they will tell you that they 'regret' the fact that people ethincally close to them west of them chose to look westwards and accept that culture. It
is a sore point and an issue upon which many Russians feel an inferiority complex towards Europe which is aided by the fact that Central European
countries chose to follow the Western European alphabet, religion and culture.

This is a fundamental point.

Firstly, Ukraine has a financial contract with Russia to supply gas. They also have a contract to berth ships at Savastopol.


2006 began dramatically for Ukraine. On 4 January, Kyiv (Kiev) and Moscow signed a deal that ended their increasingly acrimonious gas dispute and resumed Russian gas supplies to Ukraine and Europe. Barely one week later, on 10 January, the Rada (Ukraine’s parliament) voted to dismiss the government of prime minister Yuri Yekhanurov, ostensibly for having agreed to unfavourable terms in the gas deal. In turn, President Viktor Yushchenko called the vote unconstitutional and vowed to continue with the current government until parliamentary elections on 26 March.

The gas explosion

The row over Russian gas supplies to Ukraine had been brewing throughout 2005. In summer 2004, Russia had agreed to unusually low gas prices – $50 per thousand cubic meters – in order to tip the balance in favour of Viktor Yanukovych, its candidate in Ukraine’s presidential elections. But Ukraine’s voters preferred the democratic opposition’s Yushchenko, and subsequent regime efforts to falsify the election results sparked the “orange revolution” that brought Yushchenko and his then ally, Yulia Tymoshenko, to power.

Although Yanukovych lost the election, the biggest loser was Russia’s president, Vladimir Putin. Democracy was clearly making inroads in his self-proclaimed sphere of influence, Ukraine appeared to have been “lost”, and Russia was saddled with a ridiculously low gas price that it granted only to vassals, such as Belarus. Small wonder that Russia’s state-controlled gas monopoly, Gazprom, insisted on renegotiating the price upwards. Small wonder as well that Ukraine’s new orange government, recognising a good deal when it saw one, insisted on retaining the terms of the 2004 contract.

By mid-December 2005, with no revised agreement in sight, Gazprom upped the ante, telling the Ukrainians that, unless they accepted a fivefold price increase, it would cease pumping gas to Ukraine as of 1 January. Yushchenko refused, insisting that a gradual increase in the price, introduced over several years, was the only equitable and economically non-damaging way to proceed. Gazprom ignored his arguments and, as promised, reduced gas flows on new year’s day. Resulting gas shortages in Europe immediately led to howls of protest and a hasty retreat by Gazprom. Soon thereafter, Kyiv and Moscow announced a deal that doubled the price of gas and raised Ukraine’s transit fees.

...

http://www.opendemocracy.net/democracy-ukraine/gas_crisis_3185.jsp

You can find lots more info on Moscow bulling of it's surrounding satellites.
Do you really think an Empire Mentality, Russia has had since its beginnings as
the Mucovite Kingdom can be erased by 15 years of democracy - the first time that Russia has had a democracy.

Anti-Russian? I have friends who are Russian. I do however have grown up
under Soviet troops - you could say I'm a bit biased, who wouldn't be. Especially if you consider that Russia still awards medals to war criminals (NKVD officers and the like and other veterans) and has not acknowledged history. Germany has apologised, the Soviet Union has not.

My POV is also based on truth after detailed research.

It isn't helpful to announce that I don't know about these things when I do. Russia doesn't want the Soviet Union back, and they have openly said so.

I think you're correct about not knowing too much about this subject otherwise you'd be in agreement with me. :)

I admit the quote my memory reproduced is a little off but is essentially the same:

Russia's President Vladimir Putin has described the collapse of the Soviet Union as "the greatest geopolitical catastrophe" of the 20th century.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/europe/4480745.stm

Even more troubling is Putin’s unapologetic nostalgia for the days when Russia ran the affairs of nearly all its immediate neighbors. “We should acknowledge,” he recently declared in an astonishing speech, “that the collapse of the Soviet Union was a major geopolitical disaster of the century.” Putin clearly intends to restore Russia’s influence over the Commonwealth of Independent States, the vestigial association of former Soviet republics. “We need not turn this CIS space into a battlefield,” he said. “Rather we should turn it into a space of co-operation.” The idea that these are the two options being considered by Putin is not reassuring.

http://www.hoover.org/publications/digest/2912921.html

Putin did not "create the office of PM". Please do some research.

Putin consolidated the power. Putin appointed PMs under him and then made the new President Medvedev appoint him as PM.

Olga Kryshtanovskaya, head of the Center for Elite Studies at the Russian Academy of Sciences Institute of Sociology. She adds that while Medvedev will be the de jure head of state, Putin will rule de facto.


Means Of Control

Kryshtanovskaya and other Kremlin-watchers say Putin will partially rely on Medvedev's loyalty to maintain control over the political system, but also will use other levers of influence.
One such lever is Putin's control over the Unified Russia party, which on December 2 won a two-thirds majority in the State Duma. That majority is enough to initiate constitutional amendments -- and to impeach the president.



Putin is also expected to maintain at least informal control over the military, security services, and Foreign Ministry -- which under current legislation report to the president.



And despite Putin's pledge not to decrease the president's powers at the expense of the prime minister, analysts nevertheless say constitutional changes are likely.



"This tandem will hardly last the whole four-year presidential term without changes" in the balance of authority, Kryshtanovskaya says. "I think the process of amending the constitution will soon start. At first it will be just discussions. Later a Constitutional Assembly will be convened. This is a long process. The goal will be to change the political system."

http://www.rferl.org/content/Article/1079272.html

The islands near Japan are perfectly legally held. More research required.

Japan secured control of the islands -- Etorofu, Habomai, Kunashiri and Shikotan -- through a treaty signed with Russia in 1875. However, the Soviet Union retook them toward the end of World War II, a move strongly protested by Japan ever since.

http://www.worldpoliticsreview.com/article.aspx?id=2959

Yeah. You know maybe Russia would like to take Alaska back too eh?
Except there is this thing called US Armed Forces preventing them from doing that. No doubt they'd like to.

Nope, I do not hate America or Americans, so you can adjust your assertions.

Your pro-Russian/Soviet bias is very obvious. However, the comment wasn't only aimed at you but at many in the Islamist camp who see Russia as a counterpoint to the US. I can understand their issue, sort of - the enemy of your enemy is your friend. However they choose to overlook the oppression
of felow Muslims by that enemy elsewhere.

They can call the war anything they want. After all they lost a HUGE number of people.

They can also retake Eastern Europe if they want, the lost a lot of people in WW2. However they did not loose all those people to Hitler, but to their own leadership, they committed massive war crimes which have gone unpunished against various Soviet populations, Eastern Europeans, and the Russian people themselves.

Seriously...

Your last statement is crazy, but maybe springs from a lack of understanding of the situation.

Russia, TODAY, does not see WW2 as starting in 1939. They don't acknowledge their illegal action of entering a sovereign nation (Poland) as an illegal and despicable act. They ignore the events prior to Hitler's invasion of Russia. That says a lot and if you choose to ignore it - I assume you're doing it purposefully because the connection is no rocket science, Russian mentality does not see anything wrong with events prior to 1941, the same
mentality continues to this day. That is wrong. German and Japanese mentalities have changed. When is Russia going to change it's mentality and appetite for regional militaristic bullying?

I don't think Russia has apologised for attacking Finland either no have they apologised for their actions against the Baltics. Heck no-one apologised to the people who were forced to endure 50 years of Soviet oppression and communism - but unlike for these people the collapse of the Soviet Union was not a 'calamity' but a godsend. See the differences ??? :)
 

PeterCH

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What the Nazi's did in Russia on the inward and outward march was nothing short of genocide. They rounded up and slaughtered hundreds of thousands of Russian civilians. I'm not sure where I saw the figures, try google them, but Russia lost more civilians than another other country in WW2.

I agree that the Nazis were very cruel. That cruelty cost them the war. Stalin and co were already cruel and had they been a bit more kind they could have had enough Russian co-operation to defeat Stalin.

During WW2, Soviet General, Andrei Andreyevich Vlasov defected to
the Germans with upto a million troops. Some of who saw combat on the
Nazi side. There were also numerous Cossack troops who fought on the side
of the Nazis.

The Soviet Union treated it's soldiers with incredible disdain. Those soldiers who were captured by the Nazis and later returned to the Soviets by the Allies, were all considered traitors.

Moscow, 5 March: Academician Aleksandr Yakovlev: "Recalling Stalin's oppression, Yakovlev said that after the Great Patriotic War [World War II] 1.8 million prisoners of fascist concentration camps, upon their return to Russia, were thrown into GULAG camps on charges of high treason. Many of them died." Actual figures are not known, as documentation is scarce, per Stalin's instructions.

http://www.dpcamps.org/russianpow.html

There are many historical encounters of Russian soldiers raping German women and killing German men and boys on the advance towards Berlin. This was more than political, it was justice for decades of wrong. Germany betrayed Russia in both WWI and WW2, and both times they were left with a devasted country.

Why do you say Germany betrayed Russia in WW1. Tsarist Russia fought on the side of the Allies during WW1. The Germans returned Lenin to Russia which brought about the ultimate regime change there but that was not a betrayal, they were at war with each other.

While the winter set in over Stalingrad and German troops were holed up in foxholes and cellars awaiting supplies that would never arrive, Russian had pulled back far east of Moscow and had set up emergancy factory's to build weapons. Every man, woman and able child was put to labour with one goal in mind, to finally crush and destroy Germany for good. Their factory's worked 24 hours a day pumping out equipment and munition, they became as much obsessed as Hitler was.

US aid helped this happen.

Lend-Lease was the most visible sign of wartime cooperation between the United States and the Soviet Union. About $11 billion in war matériel was sent to the Soviet Union under that program. Additional assistance came from U.S. Russian War Relief (a private, nonprofit organization) and the Red Cross. About seventy percent of the aid reached the Soviet Union via the Persian Gulf through Iran; the remainder went across the Pacific to Vladivostok and across the North Atlantic to Murmansk. Lend- Lease to the Soviet Union officially ended in September 1945. Joseph Stalin never revealed to his own people the full contributions of Lend-Lease to their country's survival, but he referred to the program at the 1945 Yalta Conference saying, "Lend-Lease is one of Franklin Roosevelt's most remarkable and vital achievements in the formation of the anti-Hitler alliance."

http://www.loc.gov/exhibits/archives/worw.html

Moscow wanted more than anything to raise the flag above Reichstadt, to say, we have smashed you once and for all, and let the whole world bear witness to this.

True. However in the final days of the conflict Soviet Commanders were especially merciless towards their own men and many thousands of Russian soldiers died unnecessarily.

The Soviet Union contributed a great deal to the defeat of the European Axis but people forget the following points:
1. Soviet Union entered WW2 on the side of the Axis.
2. They shipped millions of people from the occupied countries eastwards including to the Gulags and murdered many of them.
Some of the first mass executions of WW2 were committed by the Soviets in fact.
They also returned many Jews to the Germans during those golden years of co-operation.
The Soviet Union also actively assisted the German navy is lauching its attacks on Norway (used their base at Murmansk), use Soviet assets like radio transmitters to co-ordinate Nazi bombing raids on Polish civilians.
They also helped train the SS in torture and extermination techniques. The Soviet-SS co-operation was especially strong concerning the exchange of
escaped Polish Jews and other 'undesirables' (German and Polish communists).
They even provided raw materials and food to the Germans in the opening years of WW2.
3. The Soviet Union treated it's citizens terribly. Reprisals against Soviet civilians forced to co-operate with advancing Nazis were terrible.
As mentioned the returning Russian POWs (not rebelling troops but Soviet soldiers captured by the Axis) were send to the Gulags where most died.
After 1941 the Soviets also co-operated with the Nazis on a few occasions. One case was the Warsaw Uprising where advancing Soviet troops
waited while the Nazi SS exterminated half a million civilians in Warsaw. They were then able to easily enter Warsaw without any competition
from partisans.

In short history has made the Nazis the only scum of WW2 however, the criminal regime in charge of Moscow at the time was as bad as the one in charge of
Belin. Guys like Nikita Kruschev were happy to sign death orders for thousands of people.

Anyway all those things were swept under the carpet.
 
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Nanfeishen

Executive Member
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Messages
8,937
I saw that article, it was interesting but I wouldn't call it conclusive. Assuming he was assassinated though and it was done to stop the Allies from reaching Berlin before the Soviets, what would be the benefit to them, why would they do it?

The decision regarding allowing Berlin to be taken by the Soviets, was made at the Yalta conference.
It wasnt much of a military target, as more of a political one, and Stalin was obsessed with wanting to raise Berlin to the ground, as a lesson to the german people, and as a symbol to the Russian people

Stalin, wanting to have control over Berlin, decided that he would have to convince his allies that Berlin was of no importance to him. During the Yalta Conference, Stalin approached Eisenhower saying that Berlin was unimportant to him. Surprisingly two major things happened, Stalin not only convinced Eisenhower that he (Stalin) did not want Berlin, but also convinced Eisenhower himself that Berlin was of no importance to him (Eisenhower). With the knowledge that Eisenhower would not interfere, Stalin started the Race to Berlin. Given that defeat was inevitable at this point it is thought that the race was motivated by a desire to get to the German nuclear research program in the Kaiser Wilhelm Institute before the Americans did
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Race_to_Berlin

in keeping with the "tough-guy" tradition, credits Stalin with one other desire: permission from his allies to raze Berlin, as a lesson in psychology to the Germans and as a burnt offering to his own heroic people.
http://www.time.com/time/subscriber/personoftheyear/archive/stories/1942.html

But Yalta changed Ike’s plans. At the Yalta summit meeting in February 1945,
Churchill and Roosevelt presented Stalin with a proposed map of Germany to go into effect after the war ended. The map divided Germany into four zones, each of which was to be governed by the Soviet Union, France, Great Britain, or the United States. Stalin agreed to this division of the enemy’s territory. Under this proposal Berlin would be in the Soviet zone of control about 200 miles away from the nearest allied zone. Also at Yalta, Stalin agreed to have the Soviet Union join the United Nations after the war. This was very important to Roosevelt, who believed establishment of the U. N. would be a
major element of the postwar settlement and would make for world peace. He was willing to make concessions to Stalin in order to secure his agreement.
After Yalta there seemed to be little incentive for Eisenhower to race to Berlin,
capture it, turn it over to the U.S.S.R., and then retreat 200 miles to the American occupation zone. Eisenhower’s orders from the Combined Chiefs of Staff, the military leaders of Britain and the U.S., were to defeat the German army in northwest Europe, and they did not require him to capture Berlin.

http://74.125.95.132/search?q=cache...enhower+berlin+1945&hl=en&ct=clnk&cd=26&gl=za
 

Alan

Honorary Master
Joined
Sep 30, 2005
Messages
62,475
Interesting debate. Notice how every conflict the west is blamed for "Imperialist aggression". First the Nazis then Japan, Soviet Union, Baathist Iraq, Islamic fundamentalist Iran and now poor Putin's Russia is the latest victim

Some things never change it seems:eek:
 
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