Certainly not 40 years - why do you think we need 2 generations of AA? Surely if the guavamint did their job on the education front, only one generation should suffice? And certainly not excemption based on age, otherwise it becomes age discrimination. Also, those older than the age limit for excemption might argue that they were totally against apartheid and why should they be disadvantaged/discriminated against?
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Question of the Day: Have you ever been to an airshow?
What is your solution?
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Certainly not 40 years - why do you think we need 2 generations of AA? Surely if the guavamint did their job on the education front, only one generation should suffice? And certainly not excemption based on age, otherwise it becomes age discrimination. Also, those older than the age limit for excemption might argue that they were totally against apartheid and why should they be disadvantaged/discriminated against?
theratman
Honorary Master
The affects of apartheid are going to be felt for a long time in this country,unfortunatly there is nothing we can do about this except address one issue at a time.
I think the government should put all large amount of money in protecting,housing and jobs for the citizens and make other things 'secondary objectives'.The economy can grow later,but make the country a half decent place to live in and the citizens will embrace each other(most of them) and the country will slowly begin to florish.I know im not going into much detail here but i think those steps would be a decent start.
Moederloos
Honorary Master
You will not like my answer:
Fire everyone
Sorry, I know you do not want that answer - but what else? Just about everyone in the government is either corrupt or lazy - there is no other way to stop corruption - other than fire them all. (Well, execution would work too).
Moederloos
Honorary Master
One thing I would for sure do - is provide houses for everyone. ASAP - and by that I do not mean "imminently". By June.
Take a few skilled bricklayers and builders, go out to a township, and build houses. Teach the unemployed to build. And build. As you move along, so you "gather" more newbies - and they learn. By two months you will be doubling the work force every few weeks.
Once people have a permanent address, crime WILL drop - illegal immigrants WILL be easier to find.
A man with no house can run - a man with a fixed abode is easy to find.
EDIT: Make sure to leave plenty of servitude. We will add "basic services" after June. And then, we do the same - we train people on the job - it does not take years of learning to dig a trench.
Take a few skilled bricklayers and builders, go out to a township, and build houses. Teach the unemployed to build. And build. As you move along, so you "gather" more newbies - and they learn. By two months you will be doubling the work force every few weeks.
Once people have a permanent address, crime WILL drop - illegal immigrants WILL be easier to find.
A man with no house can run - a man with a fixed abode is easy to find.
EDIT: Make sure to leave plenty of servitude. We will add "basic services" after June. And then, we do the same - we train people on the job - it does not take years of learning to dig a trench.
Robin Hood
Expert Member
I'll start with the Govt. The ellections is around the corner....So....Are the Govt IN....or OUT?
My oppinion = OUT, as there is just TOO many things AGAINST them, than FOR them...
First off, we must realize that a Govt is there FOR the people, not AGAINST the people...
Secondly, Who ARE the PEOPLE?...Blacks??..Whites??...Sorry mates, were all in this bucket, so the answer is obvious, BOTH. Now everyone here knows what the govt did FOR them ( as promised ) and NOT ( as also promised )...
To get into detail will take like forever, but most of us knows whats happening...
Now, if the first step is OUT, how do we achieve it? On paper its easy, just fire the lot, but it WONT work. Reason? No enough people have the Know How of EXACTLY whats happening in the govt. If i kick you out, would you just be able to do Mr X's job? NO...I think we must look at the current parties available...
Ok, there is quite a bit, but meaningless compared to the masses that supports the ANC...
The only "outcome" that i can see is that parties start "joining" each other, although they have diff oppinions. The "argue" mustnt be "Who wants to be in charge", but "How to get rid of the ANC"...
So IF the parties can "combine", their strengh gets so much stronger and at the end, well, not impossable to win...
Once THIS has been achieved, let the parties sort out among themselves WHO or WHAT they want to do and WHO is in charge...
The MAIN culprit is straight forward the ANC...Basicly what we need is a LEADER!...and the ANC is that not...just my 2 cents
My oppinion = OUT, as there is just TOO many things AGAINST them, than FOR them...
First off, we must realize that a Govt is there FOR the people, not AGAINST the people...
Secondly, Who ARE the PEOPLE?...Blacks??..Whites??...Sorry mates, were all in this bucket, so the answer is obvious, BOTH. Now everyone here knows what the govt did FOR them ( as promised ) and NOT ( as also promised )...
To get into detail will take like forever, but most of us knows whats happening...
Now, if the first step is OUT, how do we achieve it? On paper its easy, just fire the lot, but it WONT work. Reason? No enough people have the Know How of EXACTLY whats happening in the govt. If i kick you out, would you just be able to do Mr X's job? NO...I think we must look at the current parties available...
Ok, there is quite a bit, but meaningless compared to the masses that supports the ANC...
The only "outcome" that i can see is that parties start "joining" each other, although they have diff oppinions. The "argue" mustnt be "Who wants to be in charge", but "How to get rid of the ANC"...
So IF the parties can "combine", their strengh gets so much stronger and at the end, well, not impossable to win...
Once THIS has been achieved, let the parties sort out among themselves WHO or WHAT they want to do and WHO is in charge...
The MAIN culprit is straight forward the ANC...Basicly what we need is a LEADER!...and the ANC is that not...just my 2 cents
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Highflyer_GP
Honorary Master
That's actually a good idea. Permanent address aside, it should also help eliminate the desperation that causes most people to commit crime in the first place, it gives them a roof. And as you say, if they still choose crime, it makes tracking them easier.
This thread it pointless, no offensive meant to the creator. Vent all you want guys, but there's nothing that can be done by way of suggestions on here.
As long as the ANC run the country to benifit a few, things are going to get worse.
As long as the ANC run the country to benifit a few, things are going to get worse.
Moederloos
Honorary Master
I agree.
However, let us talk hypothetically...
It is a fun debate anyways - at the very least we can prove ourselves better than the guavamint.
daveza
Honorary Master
This forum is a microcosm of South Africa - except I suspect it is mainly white.
To a greater or lesser extent we can't even manage to get along on a text basis - what hope to find a common solution.
Perhaps if we all got together in a stadium and introduced ourselves we would find something we like in our adversaries
but until then....
I believe our negativism and pessimism is the helplessness and frustration we feel.
Example - every time I hear the radio spot about do your bit to save power I tell them loudly where to get off.
If on the other hand the powers that be said 'Right - we screwed up, we will rescind all the bonuses paid and we will sack Erwin - please help us fix this mess ' then I would feel I am part of the solution.
but until then....
To a greater or lesser extent we can't even manage to get along on a text basis - what hope to find a common solution.
Perhaps if we all got together in a stadium and introduced ourselves we would find something we like in our adversaries
but until then....
I believe our negativism and pessimism is the helplessness and frustration we feel.
Example - every time I hear the radio spot about do your bit to save power I tell them loudly where to get off.
If on the other hand the powers that be said 'Right - we screwed up, we will rescind all the bonuses paid and we will sack Erwin - please help us fix this mess ' then I would feel I am part of the solution.
but until then....
That's why I said if we can't scrap it exclude the white people who had nothing to do with it. Why should guys who had nothing to do with apartheid pay for it??
Robin Hood
Expert Member
This i wrote above, dont you guys think its a start at least?
I'd like to read it, but get a bit lost. Could you maybe format it into some paragraphs and cut down on the periods (".")? It is like a big burst that is hard to make sense of. No offence.
Robin Hood
Expert Member
theratman
Honorary Master
Hope its better now?...sorry hey
Stealing grammar from the rich and giving it to the poor!
Thats our Robin Hood
GougedEye
Expert Member
I see one real problem with lots of symptoms. And that problem is lack of accountability. At all levels of government. There is effectively no accountability in government.
The ANC is guaranteed to get voted in again by it's tribalised electorate no matter how they fail to deliver anything to the people of this country. It's officials are morce concerned with cutthroat internal power politics with the national coffers as a prize than delivering on their many unfulfilled promises. After all, why bother about delivery when you can always blame the whites.
Ministers utterly fail to deliver results in their portfolios year after year after year with not result. No sanction, no reprimand, and certainly no dismissal.
So called public servants who treat the public and their job deliverables with contempt.
BEE contractors who take the money without delivering the service.
Prosecutors, magistrates and judges who perform their jobs as negligently or well as they please without any fear of reprimand.
Criminals who do as they please, rape murder or whatever with little realistic fear of being caught and brought to justice.
Without accountability their is no hope.
Make ministers accountable for the results delivered by their portfolio. Put in place measurable targets. If you fail to deliver, you are out.
Make Department heads accountable for their departments. f you fail to deliver, they are out.
Make public servants accountable for delivering according to their job specification. If they fail to deliver, they are out.
And above all, make the government accountable to the electorate. If they fail, to deliver FFS vote for someone else and not the same government because you have some sort of tribal allegiance to them.
Counter to popular opinion there are lots of very clever, capable people both in government and the ANC. The problem is that their is nothing for them to gain from doing their job and everything to be gained by joining the culture of self interest and corruption. We easily have the people and resources to make a huge improvement in SA in the short term, however, those in control of the ANC utterly lack the political will to do this.
As the BBC panorama program asked. How did the ANC go from Mandela to this man??"
The ANC is guaranteed to get voted in again by it's tribalised electorate no matter how they fail to deliver anything to the people of this country. It's officials are morce concerned with cutthroat internal power politics with the national coffers as a prize than delivering on their many unfulfilled promises. After all, why bother about delivery when you can always blame the whites.
Ministers utterly fail to deliver results in their portfolios year after year after year with not result. No sanction, no reprimand, and certainly no dismissal.
So called public servants who treat the public and their job deliverables with contempt.
BEE contractors who take the money without delivering the service.
Prosecutors, magistrates and judges who perform their jobs as negligently or well as they please without any fear of reprimand.
Criminals who do as they please, rape murder or whatever with little realistic fear of being caught and brought to justice.
Without accountability their is no hope.
Make ministers accountable for the results delivered by their portfolio. Put in place measurable targets. If you fail to deliver, you are out.
Make Department heads accountable for their departments. f you fail to deliver, they are out.
Make public servants accountable for delivering according to their job specification. If they fail to deliver, they are out.
And above all, make the government accountable to the electorate. If they fail, to deliver FFS vote for someone else and not the same government because you have some sort of tribal allegiance to them.
Counter to popular opinion there are lots of very clever, capable people both in government and the ANC. The problem is that their is nothing for them to gain from doing their job and everything to be gained by joining the culture of self interest and corruption. We easily have the people and resources to make a huge improvement in SA in the short term, however, those in control of the ANC utterly lack the political will to do this.
As the BBC panorama program asked. How did the ANC go from Mandela to this man??"
Moederloos
Honorary Master
I felt the same way - did not want to say it though.
When faced with a chuck of text in one BIG block, my brain shuts down.
That is why my posts are usually multi-paragraph like this.
Robin Hood
Expert Member
The first move in the right direction, would be for the "elected" cabinet/Government to have a constitution/mission statement and vision seperate to that of the ANC liberal movement, and a seperate system to audit and enforce this.
At the moment, they are "freedom fighters" first and public servants second. (despite the fact that they have achieved their goal, they constantly fear that they may lose it, not entirely unjustified but certain if things carry on like they are, even if it takes 30 years like zim).
All public service policies are still based on the same visions and misson statements of the original movement.
If they seperate those two, and manage to incorporate some checks and balances, and some unbiased organizational skills (which they must have somewhere) they would have a hope of succeeding.
But the government MUST be judged on their ability to deliver on promises, seperate to the movement, who need to ensure the recovery of the previously disadvantaged and the continued support of the ANC. This recovery cannot be at the expense of the country or it's economy and people - which is what is happening now, it is not sustainable, even for them.
In the current format - just read all the articles and speeches on their site - they will only ever be a "movement of the struggle" and never get beyond that, and neither will South Africa. Every decision or policy is based on protecting the movement and furthering the movement, not on South Africa first, ANC second.
We are stuck with the ANC, no amount of wishing or dreaming is gonna change that.
But maybe if they hear it often enough, they will think of restructuring to accommodate the new role they now have to play?
Governing South Africa successfully to the benefit of all south africans is very different to running a resistance movement and needs it's own agenda, rules, audits, attention and organisation. This is where it all begins, or ends....
At the moment, they are "freedom fighters" first and public servants second. (despite the fact that they have achieved their goal, they constantly fear that they may lose it, not entirely unjustified but certain if things carry on like they are, even if it takes 30 years like zim).
All public service policies are still based on the same visions and misson statements of the original movement.
If they seperate those two, and manage to incorporate some checks and balances, and some unbiased organizational skills (which they must have somewhere) they would have a hope of succeeding.
But the government MUST be judged on their ability to deliver on promises, seperate to the movement, who need to ensure the recovery of the previously disadvantaged and the continued support of the ANC. This recovery cannot be at the expense of the country or it's economy and people - which is what is happening now, it is not sustainable, even for them.
In the current format - just read all the articles and speeches on their site - they will only ever be a "movement of the struggle" and never get beyond that, and neither will South Africa. Every decision or policy is based on protecting the movement and furthering the movement, not on South Africa first, ANC second.
We are stuck with the ANC, no amount of wishing or dreaming is gonna change that.
But maybe if they hear it often enough, they will think of restructuring to accommodate the new role they now have to play?
Governing South Africa successfully to the benefit of all south africans is very different to running a resistance movement and needs it's own agenda, rules, audits, attention and organisation. This is where it all begins, or ends....