What SA's top IT executives earn

Let me start by saying that I am a great fan of the free market system and I am opposed to capping or regulating what anyone earns. Free market and social forces should apply in an atmosphere of transparency.

Nobody really believes that 'free market' is appropriate in all situations. If you believed that 'free market' or 'willing buyer, willing seller' is really fair and that these executives are justified to demand their astronomical earnings, why am I not allowed to auction my organs to the highest bidder? The idea that the life of a rich person is more valuable than the life of a poor person and therefore rich people deserve better access to life saving opportunities is abhorrent to civilized people. Just because a person can pay me $1million for my cornea or kidney doesn’t mean they are more deserving than another person. And yet we, the shareholders and tax payers, are convinced that executives and government officials should be obscenely remunerated to afford exactly these injustices.

The greatest social evil comes when these talented citizens who benefit richly from society but do not contribute those talents back to the society that endorsed their extremist remuneration. How many of the above posts endorse the salaries by ‘These guys deserve what they earn because …’? In return these talented members of society shirk their responsibilities to the communities that support them by sending their children to private school, going to private hospitals, using private security companies and relaxing in private members only golf clubs. This is the ‘new apartheid’, if you can afford the price you get a place in the sun otherwise bad luck.

These talented ultra-rich people are not invested in public schooling, public medical care, public security or public recreation. They have essentially unplugged from their communities and no longer care about the schooling system, the medical system, the police or public access to beaches, mountains or parks. They have thrown the rest of the citizens under the bus to fend for themselves.

It seems that the shareholders and taxpayers who fund these salaries feel that you get better performance if you pay more. There are too many examples that show that paying huge sums is no guarantee of success. Why do we allow these talented people to demand disproportionate remuneration? Why do we feel that they deserve such outrageously privileged lifestyles? What are their qualities and how valuable are they really? Are they more valuable than honesty, dedication, loyalty, perseverance, hard work that all good employees exhibit?

Their most cherished quality is their Teflon coating, just watch them earn their zealous wages when they justify why the catastrophe that they have just overseen is not their fault. They nurture ‘plausible deniability’ because it allows them to get away with daylight robbery.

This whole mindset is getting away from us, government ministers feel they deserve to spend millions on cars and houses and life-styles while their voters are starving in unemployment. Isn’t this just the most stunning example of the ‘Executive Mindset’.
 
That is just their standard yearly salary. Nevermind their share options or bonuses. Or for that matter, the dividends on their big share holdings.

+1 000 000

"salary" is usually just a fraction of real remuneration.
 
Let me start by saying that I am a great fan of the free market system and I am opposed to capping or regulating what anyone earns. Free market and social forces should apply in an atmosphere of transparency.

Nobody really believes that 'free market' is appropriate in all situations. If you believed that 'free market' or 'willing buyer, willing seller' is really fair and that these executives are justified to demand their astronomical earnings, why am I not allowed to auction my organs to the highest bidder? The idea that the life of a rich person is more valuable than the life of a poor person and therefore rich people deserve better access to life saving opportunities is abhorrent to civilized people. Just because a person can pay me $1million for my cornea or kidney doesn’t mean they are more deserving than another person. And yet we, the shareholders and tax payers, are convinced that executives and government officials should be obscenely remunerated to afford exactly these injustices.

The greatest social evil comes when these talented citizens who benefit richly from society but do not contribute those talents back to the society that endorsed their extremist remuneration. How many of the above posts endorse the salaries by ‘These guys deserve what they earn because …’? In return these talented members of society shirk their responsibilities to the communities that support them by sending their children to private school, going to private hospitals, using private security companies and relaxing in private members only golf clubs. This is the ‘new apartheid’, if you can afford the price you get a place in the sun otherwise bad luck.

These talented ultra-rich people are not invested in public schooling, public medical care, public security or public recreation. They have essentially unplugged from their communities and no longer care about the schooling system, the medical system, the police or public access to beaches, mountains or parks. They have thrown the rest of the citizens under the bus to fend for themselves.

It seems that the shareholders and taxpayers who fund these salaries feel that you get better performance if you pay more. There are too many examples that show that paying huge sums is no guarantee of success. Why do we allow these talented people to demand disproportionate remuneration? Why do we feel that they deserve such outrageously privileged lifestyles? What are their qualities and how valuable are they really? Are they more valuable than honesty, dedication, loyalty, perseverance, hard work that all good employees exhibit?

Their most cherished quality is their Teflon coating, just watch them earn their zealous wages when they justify why the catastrophe that they have just overseen is not their fault. They nurture ‘plausible deniability’ because it allows them to get away with daylight robbery.

This whole mindset is getting away from us, government ministers feel they deserve to spend millions on cars and houses and life-styles while their voters are starving in unemployment. Isn’t this just the most stunning example of the ‘Executive Mindset’.

You copied and pasted your previous post?:rolleyes:
 
Shareholders pay the salaries because they earn the profits. As taxpayers, we only benefit; by the taxable income of CEOs and the corporate taxes on the company.

Collectively these companies are worth hundreds of billions of rands and earn tens of billions of rands each year. As shareholders, who are you going to put in charge of those assets? How are you going to align your interests with those of the CEO? Not by paying peanuts, that's for sure. Not by removing performance incentives either.

What is always equitable is that a person is paid according to the financial impact of his or her contribution. Working hard is one thing, but more importantly you need to work smart. The opportunity to run one of these companies is denied to no-one. If you are good and smart enough you can do it too.
 
You copied and pasted your previous post?:rolleyes:

Thank you for reading, I put a lot of effort in and felt it is worthy of more airtime. I feel that this is an important topic and when people realize how harmful this mindset is we will see less 'I don't care' and 'Not news worthy' and 'Boring topic' comments and a whole lot more righteous outrage.

We will create a healthier society when the workers realize that it is not OK for the Boss to earn mountains of money for exercising his talents which is exactly what the worker is also doing but the worker struggles to pay school fees and buy school shoes for his kids. If you work harder you should be rewarded more, there should be a reward gap but this gap is way too big and it just reinforces how little value workers have.
 
Thank you for reading, I put a lot of effort in and felt it is worthy of more airtime. I feel that this is an important topic and when people realize how harmful this mindset is we will see less 'I don't care' and 'Not news worthy' and 'Boring topic' comments and a whole lot more righteous outrage.

We will create a healthier society when the workers realize that it is not OK for the Boss to earn mountains of money for exercising his talents which is exactly what the worker is also doing but the worker struggles to pay school fees and buy school shoes for his kids. If you work harder you should be rewarded more, there should be a reward gap but this gap is way too big and it just reinforces how little value workers have.

I found it to be pretty one sided. You left out alot of variables.
Perhaps try and balance it out abit. Also I dont think they paid to do nothing as some people think.

Besides I think people also have something to work towards... imagine a CEO of a R5 billion company taking home a 28 year old engineer/CA salary...
Whats the point right?
 
Shareholders pay the salaries because they earn the profits. As taxpayers, we only benefit; by the taxable income of CEOs and the corporate taxes on the company.
The earnings of executives of publicly listed companies and elected civil servants are already a matter of public record, much to their annoyance I'm sure. Knowing how much they earn we have a fairly accurate idea of what they should be paying in tax but for some strange reason those tax amounts are not publicly available. Studies have been done by researchers at the various tax agencies around the world and have resulted in a cry for the tax figures to be released because there is often such a disparity between what they should pay and what they actually pay.

When you earn more than R1million a month and most of that is supposed to be taxed at 40% these people tend to be extraordinarily motivated to minimize that tax liability. There are bright, well paid tax consultants that devise ingenious schemes to avoid paying tax. The executives won’t tell us because they are happy to keep the money and SARS won’t tell us because then we can measure how efficient they really are. Anyway it is much easier going after a little guy who doesn’t have a tax expert and feisty lawyer. The little guys just poop themselves and pay up when SARS calls.
Collectively these companies are worth hundreds of billions of rands and earn tens of billions of rands each year. As shareholders, who are you going to put in charge of those assets? How are you going to align your interests with those of the CEO? Not by paying peanuts, that's for sure. Not by removing performance incentives either.
We will change this situation when voters and shareholders realise that it is not OK when any CEO (Sean Summers, 2005) earns R168million while his workers strike nationwide for an extra 1% increase. Most South Africans can live in fantastic luxury for R1million a year, why does Sean deserve R160million more? How much more luxury can a person swallow?
What every human deserves is a opportunity to exercise his talents for his fulfillment, contribute to his society and be recognized for it. Sean already had the job he desired where he could exercise his leadership talents, why was he denying his workers (who lived in shacks) R160million because he deserved it more? This is just anti-social behavior.

King Mswati of Swaziland demonstrates this mindset nicely. He sees fit to spend R3million on a Maibach while his subjects suffer in abject poverty, die like flies from disease and freeze to death in the snow of the Mountain Kingdom every winter. As Dr Phil says, 'What was he thinking?' What could possibly make that right?
What is always equitable is that a person is paid according to the financial impact of his or her contribution. Working hard is one thing, but more importantly you need to work smart. The opportunity to run one of these companies is denied to no-one. If you are good and smart enough you can do it too.
That is not true, the playing field is not level. You are excluded for many reasons, some of them as petty as the fact that you live in Port Alfred. Doesn't matter how 'good and smart' you are.

I found it to be pretty one sided. You left out alot of variables.
Perhaps try and balance it out abit. Also I dont think they paid to do nothing as some people think.

Besides I think people also have something to work towards... imagine a CEO of a R5 billion company taking home a 28 year old engineer/CA salary...
Whats the point right?
The point is you get to have a fulling life while you celebrate your God given talents. What is the cruelest thing you can do to a rock star? Ban him from playing music. An artist? Ban him from painting. A teacher? Ban them from teaching. A sportsman? Ban him from sport. A CEO? Ban him from working. Immediately your life loses meaning, what's the point of *that* life?

We need these very talented people to plug back into their societies. Being personally invested in a cause is more than throwing money at the problem. When you sit on the governing body as a parent of a learner at that school (or hospital or Community Police Forum) you tend to invest your talents and connections for creative solutions.
 
The greatest social evil comes when these talented citizens who benefit richly from society but do not contribute those talents back to the society that endorsed their extremist remuneration. How many of the above posts endorse the salaries by ‘These guys deserve what they earn because …’? In return these talented members of society shirk their responsibilities to the communities that support them by sending their children to private school, going to private hospitals, using private security companies and relaxing in private members only golf clubs. This is the ‘new apartheid’, if you can afford the price you get a place in the sun otherwise bad luck.

By talent you mean money? If that's the case your reasoning is flawed? Try paying tax on 12 million LOL

ouch
 
Sorry back to my point, Gov stands by and watches because of the kick backs they get wrt to tax...it will never change...why kill the golden goose?
 
That is not true, the playing field is not level. You are excluded for many reasons, some of them as petty as the fact that you live in Port Alfred. Doesn't matter how 'good and smart' you are.

I'm only excluded by choice. The last thing I want in my life now is to be the CEO of a large corporation. I don't care what the remuneration is, the responsibility and the lack of private and home life and the general lack of freedom that such a job entails is not something that would suit me. It is not the lifestyle I would choose.

I gave up my corporate job last November (early retirement) and moved to Port Alfred in January. I moved here to get out of the rat race and work on some of my own private projects. Over the years I made hundreds of millions of rands for the company I worked for and they paid me accordingly.

The only limits on your ability to earn are the limits you place on yourself.

Bottom line: If these companies pay mediocre packages to their executives, they will end up with mediocre executives. You can appeal for moderation as much as you want, but you cannot defeat human nature. If I'm going to work, then I want to work under the best, the most incentivised, and most lucrative conditions that my skills can demand. That is how the world works.

Not to get into a socio-political debate, here, but what you are advocating has been tried before in this world and it flat doesn't work. It leads only to failed economies and gross mediocrity.
 
I'm only excluded by choice. The last thing I want in my life now is to be the CEO of a large corporation. I don't care what the remuneration is, the responsibility and the lack of private and home life and the general lack of freedom that such a job entails is not something that would suit me. It is not the lifestyle I would choose.

I gave up my corporate job last November (early retirement) and moved to Port Alfred in January. I moved here to get out of the rat race and work on some of my own private projects. Over the years I made hundreds of millions of rands for the company I worked for and they paid me accordingly.

The only limits on your ability to earn are the limits you place on yourself.

Bottom line: If these companies pay mediocre packages to their executives, they will end up with mediocre executives. You can appeal for moderation as much as you want, but you cannot defeat human nature. If I'm going to work, then I want to work under the best, the most incentivised, and most lucrative conditions that my skills can demand. That is how the world works.
This is where I differ with you. The money you manage to extort from your customer or employer is linked to the firmness of the grip you have on their goonies more than it does with your particular talents. Teachers and nurses seem to have a particularly weak bargaining position and therefore are weak earners even though they have vital and difficult jobs that require specific and rare talents.

Just because humans are greedy by nature doesn't mean that we should let their nature run rampant. We are very prepared to fight human nature vigorously, so we are more than able to curb human greed when it threatens the society we live in. We are very happy to throw people in jail if they do not keep other human qualities (like anger) in check.

A KZN MEC gets paid R100 000 per month to drive his Range Rover to work and back. He hasn't broken any laws but he is unethically greedy, the people he is meant to serve are suffering as a result. Any school or clinic in KZN would love to get that R100 000 every month when the MEC starts using the 3 year old BMW from the government garage. He should resign in shame.

Not to get into a socio-political debate, here, but what you are advocating has been tried before in this world and it flat doesn't work. It leads only to failed economies and gross mediocrity.

I'm afraid to say but this has been a socio-political debate from the start. It goes to the very heart of the world we live in. I would like to live in a world where basic human rights are respected and people are free to do jobs that they feel passionate about and make them feel fulfilled. We have some very talented professors, nurses, social workers and teachers who earn a pittance and I don't think that they are all grossly mediocre. People have different talents and we need to create a society where they can exercise those talents optimally. I want to be operated on by a surgeon who really wants to perform surgery and not just because it is a way to make some money so that he can retire to Port Alfred as soon as possible. :)
And that goes for the judges, professors, teachers, nurses, police and all the other CEOs and civil servants I help pay for. It would be great if they wanted to do their jobs and were not just there because they wanted the bags of money.

It would be very sad if a person was doing a job they hated just for the money. It would pathetic if his old job that he loved paid him R1million and he moved to this horrible job to earn the extra R2million and maybe deserves to suffer for his greed.
 
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@technofool,

A KZN MEC is a public servant and his duty is to the public and the taxpayer. And I get highly irate if he squanders, wastes or embezzles the taxes I pay.

CEO's are not public servants, and their duty is to shareholders, and no-one else. What they do with their earnings, I couldn't give a jot.

But you really ignore the real heart of the matter. If you are content to earn a modest salary as a teacher or nurse or whatever that is your choice. If you want to earn R10m per year then clearly you need to do a job (or start a business) that will achieve that ambition.

But it is just sour grapes to choose to become a teacher or a nurse and then decry the earnings of a corporate CEO.

Decide what it is you want in life and then go for it. If it is job satisfaction, great. If is money, great. If it is both, great. I just don't see the point of trying to pluck other peoples' wings.
 
@technofool,

A KZN MEC is a public servant and his duty is to the public and the taxpayer. And I get highly irate if he squanders, wastes or embezzles the taxes I pay.

CEO's are not public servants, and their duty is to shareholders, and no-one else. What they do with their earnings, I couldn't give a jot.
I don't believe we should legislate or cap what people can earn or what they may do with their legally earned money. The fact that someone negotiates a contract for R300million (even if I fail miserably, Colin Andrews SAA) is 'fine', the fact that we think it is OK is just sad. OK Andrews was American so he robbed his fellow humans not his fellow countrymen but there are plenty of South African executives who have greedily followed his example.

I am astounded that there are people who can live with themselves taking home R100 000+ a month when some of his workers are denied access to basic services like water, electricity or weatherproof shelter. Never mind decent schooling or medical services for his loved ones. What does an intelligent human possibly say to themselves to make that OK?
Probably very similar to what King Mswati was thinking when he ordered his Maibach. Unbridled greed, nothing less.

But you really ignore the real heart of the matter. If you are content to earn a modest salary as a teacher or nurse or whatever that is your choice. If you want to earn R10m per year then clearly you need to do a job (or start a business) that will achieve that ambition.
I have yet to meet a teacher or a nurse who is content with the workload or remuneration, they are overwhelmingly unhappy. Like great artistic talent, teaching and nursing is more of a calling than a choice. It is a career of giving and telling them 'Tough, go find a better job' is ... sorry words escape me.
But it is just sour grapes to choose to become a teacher or a nurse and then decry the earnings of a corporate CEO.

Decide what it is you want in life and then go for it. If it is job satisfaction, great. If is money, great. If it is both, great. I just don't see the point of trying to pluck other peoples' wings.

I can imagine this last paragraph coming straight from lips of Sean Summers (CEO Pick n Pay 2006) as he explained to his shelf packers why he needed to keep every cent of his R168million and there was no money left for the R50 per month they were asking for. This attitude is devoid of ubuntu, it is un-African and I see why senior members of the ruling party say that such people should leave the country. Basically the same attitude as 'Hamba, go find a better job' in another country.
 
First you want to fight human nature. Next you want to fight the basic economics of supply and demand.

If less and less people chose to become shelf packers, or nurses or teachers or whatever, there will be a skills shortage in those sectors. If there is a skills shortage, salaries will rise. Economics 101.

You don't raise the base of a mountain by chopping off the summit.

To right all the social ills in your post, and to correct the deep imbalances that exist you need effective, efficient and compassionate government.

And for any kind of government to succeed, you need a private sector that is generating the nation's wealth so that you can tax the crap out of it.

The more that people are earning, no matter who they are, the better it is for all of us.
 
The way I see it, government greed and corruption looks like Little House on Prairie compared with Big Business. The oligopolies, the price fixing, bribery, the greed, the lying, the cheating, the con artistry, the dirty tactics, the environmental crimes, ... they lead the way for government.

In the old days you couldn't criticize government because they were ordained by God, nowadays you can't can't criticise corporate greed because they've got Adam Smith on their side. Every time you do that, you get the free market bible thrown at you. Please, someone show me a free market, somewhere, anywhere, ever, on this planet, outside of Adam Smith's social contract theory construction. There is no such thing, never was, never will be. The playing field is not level, and I don't care if the position is now open to anyone who works hard and shows talent. It's not about the individual but the position which commands such obsequious pay and wields such unbridled power. If you want to talk about market mechanisms here, how's about this one: the tug-o-war rope. Pulling on the one end we have our teachers, doctors police, domestic workers, petrol attendants, miners, factory workers, etc while pulling at the other end we have the Big Business Gravy Train. Sure, the field is perhaps level from the point of view that some individuals may change sides, but how does that make the game fair?

Gatecrasher's appeal to the Free Market is like the white supremacist 's appeal to the "survival of the fittest" principle. Both appeals are to a supposed natural mechanism and both are an attempt to escape the ethical imperatives. This debate can and must be conducted on moral grounds. Natural mechanisms are merely one factor among many to be considered.

Technofool, wasn't there something you posted a while ago which contrasted the CEO-worker salaries of today with those of a few decades ago? It will be interesting to bring that to this debate.
 
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There's another one: the appeal to human nature. Duh! (Sorry I'm just rude by nature.) Really, I don't get it. It's like justifying walking on the floor by an appeal to gravity. Who's arguing with human nature here? I'm not interested in why you walk on the floor, but in where you go and what you do, in other words, what you do with your human nature. I don't care how selfish and greedy you might be (if those are the qualities you believe to sum up human nature), as long as you do the right thing. In the end, that is what the debate must come down to and I agree wholeheartedly with Technofool in his taking a moral stand.

Lets get an answer to what I think is his best question so far: How does Sean Summers justify his 168m to a couple of thousand workers fighting for just R50 more? Can he actually explain to us how it's for the best? Or even better, how he deserves it? I have my doubts. He's going to appeal to human nature, to market forces ... in the end we always just get slapped in the face by Adam Smith's invisible hand.
 
It's fine for you guys to make a "moral stand" against the status quo but you offer no viable alternative. It is very easy to criticise what is, not so easy to propose a solution.

Your morals are not my morals, and my morals are not your morals. Imposing your morals on me or anyone else is much more akin to the modus operandi of the white supremacist, whose regimes were anything but laissez faire. They were the complete antithesis.

A society doesn't operate on morals. It operates on a set of rules which we must all obey whether they are aligned with our moral values or not. So propose some law changes. If you can come up with a rule book that rights all the perceived ills enumerated in your posts and yet does not impose arbitrary restraints on our individual freedoms of action, association or choice; while protecting the means of production and while facilitating and incentivising the generation of wealth, then I'll congratulate you. Damn it, I'll even nominate you for the Nobel Economics Prize!

Until then, cry me a river.
 
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