When thugs run the country

Because if someone is in your house ILLEGALLY how could you have intended them to die? Intention would be the intended murder. If an intruder breaks in and you kill him that is not intention.

mur·der (mûrdr)
n.
1. The unlawful killing of one human by another, especially with premeditated malice.
 
Yes, but how do you know he was there illegally, just on the shooter's say-so? It's not unreasonable to investigate.
 
Yes, but how do you know he was there illegally, just on the shooter's say-so? It's not unreasonable to investigate.

Shooter? Did you even read this? The guy hit an intruder with a lamp, setting him alight.
 
Shooter? Did you even read this? The guy hit an intruder with a lamp, setting him alight.
Yes, I read it. I was speaking generally, this argument occurs every time there is a news report about a burglar being killed. Perhaps homeowner would've been a better term.

My sympathies (on the face of it) are with the homeowner, but there have been a number of cases where the initial report of what happened is not confirmed by further investigation. (Taliep Pietersen, Avhatakali Netshisaulu, Anwar Kadwa etc etc).
 
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My apologies, on rereading I do see that you were carrying a more general argument. Very well.

It is standard to investigate, but usually charges are only filed *after* the investigation, if there is evidence of foul play. Arresting anad charging a person on the spot is unneccessary and frankly stinks of intimidation and a 'presumed guilty' mindset.
 
Yes, but how do you know he was there illegally, just on the shooter's say-so? It's not unreasonable to investigate.

He was trespassing - that's illegal. And he was robbing the house. That's also illegal.
 
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He was trespassing - that's illegal. And he was robbing the house. That's alos illegal.

Yes, yes, I do understand that. But who's telling you he was trespassing, who's telling you he was stealing? The guy who killed him? Can you see how that might be a problem?

So investigate, if he was trespassing/stealing that should be relatively easy to establish and then there's no problem.
 
Yes, yes, I do understand that. But who's telling you he was trespassing, who's telling you he was stealing? The guy who killed him? Can you see how that might be a problem?

So investigate, if he was trespassing/stealing that should be relatively easy to establish and then there's no problem.

He might have been there having an affair with the wife.:D
 
Yes, yes, I do understand that. But who's telling you he was trespassing, who's telling you he was stealing? The guy who killed him? Can you see how that might be a problem?

I guess it's normal for people to hide around the corner armed with a burning paraffin lamp, just waiting for an unsuspecting house guest to walk by....

So investigate, if he was trespassing/stealing that should be relatively easy to establish and then there's no problem.

Do the residents know him? Nope? Then he had no business there.

Yes, I'm biased. If someone climbs into my house uninvited they're playing with fire.
 
Just for interest

Culpable homicide, like murder is a form of unlawful killing.

The crucial difference, however, is that if a person kills intentionally it is murder, whereas if he or she kills negligently it is culpable homicide.

Previously, South African case law took the view that a person who kills intentionally, but in mitigating circumstances, is guilty of culpable homicide rather than murder. For example, where a man uses excessive force to defend himself from attack and kills his assailant, this would be culpable homicide. However, later decisions by the Appellate Division strongly support the trend towards excluding a verdict of culpable homicide where intent to kill is proved.

The essential element of the crime is negligence, but before any court can make a finding of culpable homicide it must be proved by the prosecution that a reasonable man' in the position of the accused would have foreseen that death could result from his actions.

The test for negligence is an objective one, as opposed to the test for intention in murder, which is subjective. For example, if it is shown that a man ought to have foreseen the possibility of killing someone when he fired a gun, negligence is present and he is guilty of culpable homicide. If it is shown that he must have foreseen the possibility of death resulting from his actions or that he intended to kill, intention is proved and he is guilty of murder.

The question of whether he ought to have foreseen the possible consequences of his actions is decided by reference to the 'reasonable man' the diligens paterfamilias or average prudent family man. The behaviour of the man accused of causing the death is objectively tested against what a reasonable man' would do in the same circumstances.
 
Maybe because we're worried about what will happen to us should we have to defend ourselves?
 
Maybe because we're worried about what will happen to us should we have to defend ourselves?
And if someone shoots you for no reason and claims its self defence?
 
And if someone shoots you for no reason and claims its self defence?

Then I'd expect the incident to be investigated, but think of it from the other side: would you enjoy being arrested and charged with murder for protecting yourself or your family? Would you like to be presumed guilty?
 
Disgusting!

I still think America's Castle Doctrine is the best. A man's house and car are his castles. If you invade it, he can use deadly force to protect it!
 
I still think America's Castle Doctrine is the best. A man's house and car are his castles. If you invade it, he can use deadly force to protect it!

Full agreement.

Incidentally, when did you become Santa?
 
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