Where are all the skilled developers?

[zippy]

A bit off topic, but what is it like there? I've always fancied the idea of living in Kent one day (my mind conjures up a lot of lush greenery and stone buildings) - is there a big IT/engineering industry in any of the cities there?

I love it. I got my perm residence in Jan this year. I'm staying. Its far more laid back than London, Joburg. Imagine Cape Town without traffic jams and slums.

There is IT in pretty much every major city in the UK, but of course London is by far the biggest. A lot of Brits commute to London. Where I stay, near Dover, which is over 95 miles away, people catch the high speed. They get to London in 50 mins and then it's another 30 mins or so on the tube/buses depending where they need to be. In the UK work usually starts at 9am so the commute isn't that much of an issue. I hated it though , but then I used to travel to work by bike in SA 15 mins, tops.

Kent is also known for other tech industries. Space, pharmaceutical. A lot if companies that build satellites and other related work for ESA are based in Kent.

As in any country, there are bad areas and there are good areas. Expensive areas and cheap areas. And lots inbetween. There is crime, but nowhere near on the scale as in SA. A reported recently stated that the UK is the safest country in Europe. Of course the Brits are disputing this.

The weather in Kent tends to be the best in the UK.

As for the lush greenery etc., Kent is known as the Garden of England.

Kent is also rich in history. It's where the Normans landed. A lot of the English kings and queens had residences in Kent. It was also the "front line" in the Battle of Britain. I sometime get the feeling they celebrate the Battle of Britain down here for the whole of summer, June to Oct.

 

[stoymigo]

What is a "bad" developer vs a "good" developer in your books?

A good developer will have worked more/learned more than the other guy worse than him/her.
So when you interview either, you will know who knows their stuff.

I've been a bad developer, still trying to improve, so I'd say a really bad trait is if a developer gives a rash estimate on how long it will take something to do and doesn't deliver.....but has been promising constantly that everything is on track.

 

[kripstoe]

A good developer will have worked more/learned more than the other guy worse than him/her.
So when you interview either, you will know who knows their stuff.

I've been a bad developer, still trying to improve, so I'd say a really bad trait is if a developer gives a rash estimate on how long it will take something to do and doesn't deliver.....but has been promising constantly that everything is on track.

I don't like the term good developer. Good seems very average. And who wants to be an average developer.

With regards to interviews. Yes and no. Some developers know a lot of theory, technology, patterns and "stuff". I prefer real world knowledge of things that work real business solutions. Exposed to a wider variety of situations, systems and problems. And not necessarily have a solution to all problems, but all least be aware of these and what their impact might be.

On estimates as a developer you will very seldom be very accurate with estimates. The fast and slow thinking of the brain plays a role here. But that is not for this thread. There will always be a spanner in the works somewhere. As long as you're aware and can adapt the changing conditions and honest with progress to the project manager it can in most cases be mitigated.

Developers create solutions to (business) problems. I didn't read all the replies from the rest of the thread, but to be an awesome developer there's more than developing than just code. Well, that's what I keep telling myself.

 

[crackersa]

It is one of the problems we face.
The reality is that there have never been that many good programmers in SA.
The level of developers in SA is just not as high as they are in the USA.

i disagree, we have dev's at our company that will program the hell out my american programmers.

 

[LouisVanAlphen]

"Where are all the skilled developers?"

Right here typing this message

 

[kripstoe]

http://news.ncsu.edu/releases/wms-murphyhill-age-2013/

 

[rrh]

I've been hearing from a lot of companies recently that they just can't find any good developers. They've got lots of positions open, but everyone they see is just useless.
So my question is, where have all the good coders gone? Do you all have jobs?

Or is it maybe because our education systems don't go far enough? I was shocked to be asked what JSON was from a 3'rd year IT student recently.

As recent research has shown, one of the major reasons is that the companies aren't prepared to pay the going rates for experienced staff ...

 

[rrh]

If someone is a good developer and happy where they are and with what they are earning (i.e., usually they believe it to be industry average or above - people can't be happy unless they earn above the average, you know. ), they really won't be motivated to look elsewhere. From what I've seen, a lot of jobs in SA don't advertise their range, and from my own experience working in SA, companies can be very cagey with what they are willing to pay, so there is very little to convince people that the grass is greener elsewhere, so they stay put. In the US and UK, things tend to be a little more open - I think that it is primarily because the companies are bigger, so it's harder to keep compensation under wraps, especially in light of websites like glassdoor.com and public H1B databases.

Perhaps the people who you are referring to should consider advertising their position and posting the upper limit of what they are able to pay. Sure, they will get a bunch of opportunists hoping to get lucky, but if their upper limit is well above average, and they filter well, they are far more likely to get a higher count of good candidates applying. Some good candidates will have the "I want the upper range value" syndrome, but these can be assessed on a case by case basis (usually facotring in how good the candidate interviewed, and what they earned previously, to see if such a demand is reasonable).

Personally, whenever a head hunter contacts me, I ask for the range, and if they're cagey, want to meet, expect me to interview first, or fill stuff out, or send in a CV for internal show and tell, or whatever, I just pass - it's not that it's all about salary for me, but I'm sure as hell not going to waste time in a tug of war only to figure out tha the upper limit for the position is an untenably small fraction of what I currently earn, however awesome the environment may sound. Similarly, I would also never apply for a job unless the range was specified and significantly above what I currently earn - there is simply no motivation to waste my time on this unless I actually want to move companies.

+5

When the salary offered is "negotiable" or "market related" it's a good bet that the company is offering below-market rates.

And they will normally have the longest list of requirements ... !

 

[stevenv]

I think it's possible that developers get into a situation where they're comfortable and are paid enough to not warrant looking elsewhere for "better" opportunities. I say this because I put myself in that bucket, others may differ. Since "good" developers aren't looking, companies looking for "good" developers aren't finding any. Certain things have to fall into quite a specific set of requirements for a comfortable developer to consider changing employers. This might include working environment, quality of work, technology, stability, benefits or perks and for some it's just down to salary. If your current employer ticks enough of these boxes, a competitive offer would need to go a lot further to elicit a change. On the other hand, I believe that companies (I can only comment from an SA perspective) might be digging their own graves in looking for very specific skills instead of seeing what someone is capable of. A skilled interviewer should be able to differentiate between someone who knows all the buzzwords or has read enough to seem knowledgeable, and someone who has the ability to learn anything and be good at it. Just because a "good" developer hasn't used some new fandangled technology doesn't mean they aren't a good hire.

PS My own personal definition of a "good" developer is one that is driven, motivated, willing to listen, able to learn and can do any work they're given. And once said work is done, they're proud enough to put their name on it. If someone doesn't meet those requirements, they're not good.

 

[cguy]

http://news.ncsu.edu/releases/wms-murphyhill-age-2013/

As recent research has shown, one of the major reasons is that the companies aren't prepared to pay the going rates for experienced staff ...

Put the two of these together, and you have a very interesting facet of the problem: More experienced devs are forced to go into management in order to up their salary. There are certain types of dev work (generally, those that require a significant amount of industry/field specific auxiliary knowledge) that really requires a great deal of experience to become an expert in, and senior devs in SA aren't really given the opportunity to explore this, and indeed, very few opportunities exist for this type of work in SA - it's a bit of a chicken and egg problem.

 

[InvisibleJim]

A healthy ecosystem for contract employment can play a role in spreading scarce skills around the industry. Contracting can be a good career choice for those who want to earn better money without going the management route and usually ageism is less of an issue when companies engage contractors.

I'm not sure that employment legislation and (to a degree) general attitudes to employment in SA favour a flexible workplace as much as they could.

 

[Diplos]

I've noticed a shortage too. We're trying to get a recent graduate (comp sci or engineering) but no luck. Tried the uni's own job sites pnet, etc.

Looks like we'll have to use an agency, which sucks.

 

[senyetse]

Same with our company. Major shortage of skilled C++ guys. We've decided to rewrite some of the stuff in C# to alleviate this.

 

[senyetse]

Regarding the JSON comments, it depends on what technologies you're exposed to. There are a multitude of IT technologies out there, you can't judge someone's skill based on what they may or may not have heard of. It's impossible to know everything, if you claim to then you still have a lot to learn...

 

[InvisibleJim]

Looks like we'll have to use an agency, which sucks.

Have you tried asking the applicants to rewrite their CV and complete a skills matrix?

 

[Priapus]

So it seems that SA may have some very good developers - however, they're staying put for now.

With regards to the link - a programmers skill improves over time. I don't agree with that research. Getting their data from only one source is not very accurate. Whoever has spent time on StockOverflow will see that a lot of the profiles do not contain specific data, like age.

However, that's not to say I disagree with their conclusion - just their method of collecting data for their research.

 

[foozball3000]

I've been hearing from a lot of companies recently that they just can't find any good developers. They've got lots of positions open, but everyone they see is just useless.
So my question is, where have all the good coders gone? Do you all have jobs?

Or is it maybe because our education systems don't go far enough? I was shocked to be asked what JSON was from a 3'rd year IT student recently.

It seems that skilled / talented and educated developers are whole different breeds altogether.
I've been coding since I was 14, now 26, and I've always had a natural nak for it. Aced High School programming (99%) and got kicked out of college after nearly acing the first few exams.

Being self-taught meant that I failed at a lot of interviews because the educated kind thinks that knowing all the buzzwords are a reflection of programming skill and understanding.

For some reason skilled developers don't really like talented ones, and I've been called arrogant by them. When I asked my peers and juniors about that, they were a bit stunned because I'm not arrogant by a long shot.

Eventually (a few months ago) I gave up career programming altogether. It seems like I wasted 5 years of my life.

So, where are the talented programmers? They do what they love in secret in their spare time, far away from jealousy, politics and other things that just want to pry the love of code from their hearts.

Disclaimer : I didn't read the whole thread. So, if something similar was posted, sorry.

 

[Other Pineapple Smurf]

It seems that skilled / talented and educated developers are whole different breeds altogether.
I've been coding since I was 14, now 26, and I've always had a natural nak for it. Aced High School programming (99%) and got kicked out of college after nearly acing the first few exams.

Being self-taught meant that I failed at a lot of interviews because the educated kind thinks that knowing all the buzzwords are a reflection of programming skill and understanding.

For some reason skilled developers don't really like talented ones, and I've been called arrogant by them. When I asked my peers and juniors about that, they were a bit stunned because I'm not arrogant by a long shot.

Eventually (a few months ago) I gave up career programming altogether. It seems like I wasted 5 years of my life.

So, where are the talented programmers? They do what they love in secret in their spare time, far away from jealousy, politics and other things that just want to pry the love of code from their hearts.

Disclaimer : I didn't read the whole thread. So, if something similar was posted, sorry.

Wow, you really don't understand how it works in the real life but your age explains it all. The reason why you study is to learn about the important foundations you need throughout your career as a developer. Reason why I'm studying even though my job does not require it.

Studying has made me a much better developer.

 

[kripstoe]

It seems that skilled / talented and educated developers are whole different breeds altogether.
I've been coding since I was 14, now 26, and I've always had a natural nak for it. Aced High School programming (99%) and got kicked out of college after nearly acing the first few exams.

Being self-taught meant that I failed at a lot of interviews because the educated kind thinks that knowing all the buzzwords are a reflection of programming skill and understanding.

For some reason skilled developers don't really like talented ones, and I've been called arrogant by them. When I asked my peers and juniors about that, they were a bit stunned because I'm not arrogant by a long shot.

Eventually (a few months ago) I gave up career programming altogether. It seems like I wasted 5 years of my life.

So, where are the talented programmers? They do what they love in secret in their spare time, far away from jealousy, politics and other things that just want to pry the love of code from their hearts.

Disclaimer : I didn't read the whole thread. So, if something similar was posted, sorry.

Got kicked out for acing exams? Failed interviews because you didn't know buzzwords? :erm: Skilled developers don't like talented ones?

From the sounds of it you either a) gave up because you worked with the wrong people/company or b) have a slight chip on your shoulder. You make a sound like skilled and talented developers are mutually exclusive, hence suspecting a slight chip. Politics you'll find at most places of employment to various degrees. The same goes for jealousy. It's how you deal with it that that also sets you apart from the rest. Developing isn't just about sitting in the basement anymore, working by yourself.

Disclaimer : This is what I perceived from your post. I might be completely wrong.

 

[kripstoe]

Also, read this article this morning.

"Tech is a young person's game."

"You can't teach old dogs new tricks."

"A child could solve this problem--someone send for a child."

Prejudice against older programmers is wrong, but new research suggests it's also inaccurate. A dandy natural experiment to test the technical chops of the old against the young has been conducted—or discovered—by two computer scientists at North Carolina State University, in Raleigh. Professor Emerson Murphy-Hill and Ph.D. student Patrick Morrison went to Stack Overflow, a Web site where programmers answer questions and get rated by the audience. It turned out that ratings rose with contributors' age, at least into the 40s (beyond that the data were sparse). The range of topics handled also rose with range (though, strangely, after dipping in the period from 15 to 30). Finally, the old were at least as well versed as the young in the newer technologies.

Of course, such a natural experiment can't account for all possible confounding factors. Because the number of programmers has expanded greatly, a disproportionate number are young, and they may thus be a less select bunch. Also, the older programmers were, presuambly, the survivors of downsizings and other cullings of the herd. What's more, they may strain to keep up with new stuff because they fear showing any signs of weakness.

The raw ability to grasp new things--or fluid intelligence--begins to fall in the 20s, while the mastery of familiar things—or crystallized intelligence—rises for almost as long as a person stays in harness. That's why older people famously substitute craft for cleverness in sports as diverse as boxing and swimming.

The rise and fall of skill has been most precisely traced in chess players. Professionals used to peak in the mid-30s, though today's computer training techniques let mere teenagers rise to the very top. Still, the pattern of decline remains what it was when the pioneer of chess ratings, Arpad Elo, devised the accompanying graph: After a certain age, it's all downhill.

Yet even chess, unlike computer science, is to some extent a physical contest, with its brutal time constraints and exhausting, multi-week tournaments. Programming would seem to place more emphasis on wisdom and less on raw, geek energy. That is, unless your project manager is a 20-year-old wunderkind.

http://beta.spectrum.ieee.org/tech-talk/at-work/tech-careers/older-and-wiser-up-to-a-point