White Domination

[alloytoo]

The only difference between the races is that one race was afforded opportunity and a good quality of life, and the other wasn't. The "neo-Apartheid architects" are not discriminating on something the "Apartheid architects" were (something on a biological level).

What about some races who were able to make the leap from illiterate farm workers to doctors and lawyers in 4-5 generations despite apartheid?

 

[alloytoo]

http://www.ritesofpassage.org/inventors.htm.

Looks like the amount of black inventors is relative to the amount of blacks who were given big opportunities from say, 1800 - 1950...

Were these black gentlemen or were they really coloured? Will we ever know?

 

[Morgoth]

Were these black gentlemen or were they really coloured? Will we ever know?

had to have a good white gene in there somewhere, even the Americans failed to make em white, maybe 2-3 more generations is needed,

 

[alloytoo]

We know the European way is better, but Europeans shouldn't just expect Africans, after a very short time of contact with Europeans, to be able to live the way Europeans have been for thousands of years.

Agreed, the wheel, written word and democracy were big mistakes.

 

[xtermin8or]

It's not so simple. There are a number of factors that need to be considered. One needs to look at each professional sector and the number of qualified black for that sector. If someone qualifies with a Social Science degree, that does not make them a programmer or doctor. One also needs to look the type of people. You are looking at management positions. Not everyone is suitable for management. It has different requirements to typical professional work. Management is usually based on a number of years of experience as they need to be able to handle companies in good times as well as bad times.



"white people are more likely to have changed jobs". This is obvious as the white people have been employed in the professional sector for far longer when black people. That is not the same thing as having changed jobs in the last x number of years. One also needs to look at the professional sector and not industries such as mining where labourers will stay in the same job for life. AA is presently being applied to the professional sector.



You still did not answer my questions. Studies need to provide specifics and a single conclusion with unreleased results is a generalisation and cannot be used.

Without the released results we can not say how broadly or specifically the HSRC looked into the matter, but it is clear that there are qualified black people out there - that is teh single conclusion you seem to have difficulty finding

The TNS research looked at the past five years, specific time-frames

Someone else posted that the study can't be accepted as it is rubberstamped qualifications, and that is exactly the problem - Managers ( and the majority are white ) believe this stereotype and therefore more whites are hired for positions than blacks - again proven by the stats released - and for those of you who like anecdotes - here's one

Johannesburg - The head of a leading corporate communications and investor relations consultancy has come under fire for her decision to no longer hire black executives.
Envisage SA managing director Nicole Katz has drawn the indignation of transformation protagonists and one of her clients for her seemingly racist decision.

Katz is quoted in a report in the recent issue of business magazine Finweek as besmirching the reputation of a senior black job applicant and justifying her position for not hiring senior black personnel.

She has not contradicted the report and at the time of going to press she had not returned messages left for her at her office.

Fin24

 

[Slooth]

The Architects of Apartheid institutionalised racism, and we are left with the remants of those policies, the Affirmative Action policies seek to reverse the effects of racist policies of the past, and if you look at the policy, it is all inclusive, Whites, Coloureds, Indians and Blacks

If we look at the Economically Active Population, we see this breakdown

Blacks - 74.8%
White - 12.1%
Coloured - 10.3%
Indian - 2.8%

We need to see this being represented at all levels of business, but what we are seeing is if we look at top management for eg

Blacks - 18.8%
Whites - 68.2%
Coloureds - 3.9%
Indians - 6.1%

The two sets of figures do not correlate - and therefore Affirmative Action policies must be enforced and strenghtened to reach the desired levels

White Women represent 5.4% of EAPs, and as they are a designated group in the AA policy, they have increased to 9.8%, almost double of what their representation should be, and so the time has come for them to be removed as a designated group, as other groups reach their desired representation level, they will also be removed, until the AA policies become obsolete

That argument is moot! If 100% of the black population had the nessary qualifications than I might not have chuckled at that report. Seriously, you have to be extremely dumb or so blinded by racism not too see the flaw in those 'blanket' stats.

 

[kingmonty]

The CEE commissioned the HSRC to conduct a study in order to illustrate trends in the supply of formal tertiary qaulifications, and while the results of this study is yet to be released, it does conclude that there is very little merit in the assertion that qualified blacks and females are not out there.

Also a study by TNS research studies has found that white people are more likely to have changed jobs, thereby proving that job-hopping in South Africa is not a unique to black professionals.

Now these studies disprove the perceptions mentioned in other posts, these perceptions are fuelled by anecdotal evidence, some far from the truth, the studies are based on scientific methodologies, and bear far more weight than little stories

How would you know? Were you part of the research team?

 

[dlk001]

Justifying her stance, Katz told Finweek: "I prefer not to hire black people at a senior level because they are exceptionally head-huntable. Envisage cannot compete on salary as it is a very small firm and constantly loses exceptionally good black candidates."

Katz said black staff left once head-hunted "after considerable personal and professional investment, time and expense, for a marginally higher salary".

Reminds me of excuses more than 8 yrs ago. Nothing has changed!

 

[kingmonty]

Reminds me of excuses more than 8 yrs ago. Nothing has changed!

I work for a very very large institution and I can promise you that this is extremely commonplace. Exceptionally highly skilled black folks are in very high demand, and at our institution they rarely stay longer than a year. Headhunting is indeed a serious problem - and a growing one at that.

 

[Abe]

Without the released results we can not say how broadly or specifically the HSRC looked into the matter, but it is clear that there are qualified black people out there - that is teh single conclusion you seem to have difficulty finding

No, I have no doubt that there are qualified black people out there. We recently hired 2 people, 1 black and 1 white. It would have been 2 black people but one of them turned down our offer. Both of these hirings were done purely based on finding the best person for the job. We probably had more white people apply for the job then black people but most were just not up to the job.

My big problem is how many qualified black people there are out there.

The TNS research looked at the past five years, specific time-frames

Did the TNS study ask the question "Have you changed jobs?" or "Have you changed jobs in the last 5 years?". What the report stated was the following:

"The syndicated survey returns, once filtered by occupation, showed that 52 percent of black professionals say they have been working for the same company since they started their career, compared with 25 percent of the white respondents."

A little bit of analysis gives a glimpse into why this is the case.

"Unsurprisingly, the younger professionals were significantly more likely to have worked for the same company since the start of their career, they were however, significantly more likely to be looking for another job."

Does it not make sense that in the professional occupations listed in the report, that the majority of black people would fall into that bracket as the professional sector was largely closed to them up until 15 years ago. One should also note that the report also states "the second statement shows that black professionals were significantly more likely to be currently looking for another job, compared to other race groups. This is an indication that they are unhappy with their current jobs." which means that black people more often looking for other jobs.

The report also gives no breakdown by occupation. For example, a call centre operator (occupied mostly by people of colour) is more likely to stay in their position then a senior developer who would have a much easier time finding another job.

Someone else posted that the study can't be accepted as it is rubberstamped qualifications, and that is exactly the problem - Managers ( and the majority are white ) believe this stereotype and therefore more whites are hired for positions than blacks - again proven by the stats released -

Not so, take a look at the top management figures. The total black representation in top management increased by 5%. This will be much higher if you look at the total from 1994. My biggest problem is that the government are trying to change the situation by legislating minimums where they should be investing in education. Had they taken the second route, we would have a surplus of qualified black people right now. The problem is that investing in education costs money that they would rather use to line their pockets through initiatives like the arms deal and Gautrain.

Again, please answer at least one of my questions. What must be done with all of the white managers out there?

 

[PostmanPot]

all those factors can be mentioned, but lets say Africa was still a colony then we would have been better off, I guarantee you the last road that was paved in Kenya was when the English still colonized it,
We should blame the pope though If he didn't prohibit Spain to colonize Africa then we would be better off.

We'd definitely be better off.

Fact of the matter : the blacks got most of Africa handed to them on a silver plate when they got independence and they lived in a minor complex to **** it up ever further.

Hopefully they'll learn over time - I think they have the potential.

 

[PostmanPot]

What about some races who were able to make the leap from illiterate farm workers to doctors and lawyers in 4-5 generations despite apartheid?

Would you be referring to Indians, Coloureds, Chinese etc.?

 

[PostmanPot]

Were these black gentlemen or were they really coloured? Will we ever know?

Agreed, the wheel, written word and democracy were big mistakes.

Are you perhaps using sarcasm to show that blacks are somewhat laxidasial(sp) in their approach to taking up the concept of "the wheel, written word and democracy" (which surely wasn't a mistake?)?

I may be a bit off track, please clarify.

 

[lsuacner]

Mandela fought against White Domination, and it was a fight he was prepared to die for, but the fight is not yet over as the latest report from the Commission for Employment Equity shows, White males still dominate the managerial levels of the private sector, with White women drawing teh largest advantage from AA policies.

White people are also favoured for recruitment and promotion, the full report is available on the Department of Labour's website

Labour

Aluta Continua

What do you expect, the nation is led by uneducated fools (who can't affect real value-adding change) and uneducated candidates can't lead the public sector either.

Once the average black candidate look as good on paper as white candidates do, things will change in an internationally competitive economy.

- I don't want to work for less than I am worth because I am white.
- I don't want to work with unprofessional people in the position because of the colour of their skin.

 

[PeterCH]

Would you be referring to Indians, Coloureds, Chinese etc.?

4-5 generations would be 95% of Europe.

 

[High/eenah]

Mandela fought against White Domination, and it was a fight he was prepared to die for, but the fight is not yet over as the latest report from the Commission for Employment Equity shows, White males still dominate the managerial levels of the private sector, with White women drawing teh largest advantage from AA policies.

White people are also favoured for recruitment and promotion, the full report is available on the Department of Labour's website

It's only logical. Unless you have a deathwish for your business.

 

[PeterCH]

Well I for one welcome our dominant female overlords

 

[High/eenah]

Blacks in the US have more education than the US whites, much more than our whites, our whites have an IQ of 94, while there blacks have an average IQ of 85.

They are certainly not easy to 'equalize' and even if it was, two points lower IQ in society has a huge impact on society and the economy.

Reply to supermonkey
..........................................................
As races go Europeans have an average IQ of 100. (Orientals are higher) the black African's average is 60 (the lowest of any race)

One can qualify for the disabled olympics if you have an IQ lower than 75.

To me this explains everything about why this continent is in the state it is in.

 

[dlk001]

I work for a very very large institution and I can promise you that this is extremely commonplace. Exceptionally highly skilled black folks are in very high demand, and at our institution they rarely stay longer than a year. Headhunting is indeed a serious problem - and a growing one at that.

Headhunting is indeed a problem across many areas e.g. Engineering Skills. In my experience, the two large companies I've worked for found many excuses for lack of retaining people.

 

[jambai]

Who creates the work.It has been 15 years and I dont see any major listing on jse by companies created by blacks.I mean you say that there was no opportunity before ,but they sure dont seem to be Using their opportunities by creating new companies.If a black persons starts a new company and takes all the risks that go with it,I bet you they want the best candidate not the most polotically correct one.

Go write CFA and you will see why AA will never work .I saw 2 black women out of 400 candidates.60% white male quite easily.