Why, the Beloved Country?

[kilo39]

Always great to package the poison pill of propaganda in little slivers of truth (while neatly whitewashing 'our' own sins and crimes against humanity.)

Did SA not vote against human rights in the UN vote? Did they not say that sanctions against sudan would be unacceptable? Do they not support people whose sole function is blowing up woman and children in buses and cafes?

The Myanmar vote had to do with 'correct procedure' at the UN (nothing to do with human rights.) Oh seems there are already sanctions against sudan (and france doesn't support them either.) Hamas: yes the DEMOCRATICALLY elected government.

No its been shown over and over again Iran has no nuclear weapons, no desire to get any, no delivery mechanism: but George wants a war (which itself gives Iran good reason to want weapons.)

Right now: I don't have the energy to unpack it or do the research (but yes overall it reads and is: propaganda.)

These docs make interesting reading:
Project for the New American Century
oh and linked off there: The Power of Nightmares

Oh and lookee here, a whole doc on neoconservatives: Neoconservatism

 

[Freshy-ZN]

And the Zim stance seeing as though its closer to home and directly affects us?

 

[kilo39]

... as said: little slivers of truth while delivering the greater package of propaganda (oh yes please lets attack Iran or anybody who disagrees with our truth.)

... and let us remember: this is 'our' perspective (we may despise mad bob but the rest cheer; I wonder why?)

... could it be a general disillusionment on trade or a dozen other issues?

 

[krycor]

The reason the ANC will NEVER support Israel is simple. If u can't see it u are truely lost. Think about the situation in Israel, the wall, the segregated society and then of what the ANC was prepared to accept in SA. Then with a straight face tell me again why the ANC will ever support Israel? In addition to the situation, the 'terrorist' groups are the ones that sided with the ANC when others turned a blind eye to them.

Heck in a surprising move they even supported a two state peace deal after a long time.

The support for Iran is two fold, 1, the ANC is refusing to allow us to just accept whatever the US wants in addition to, 2, the bounds of reasoning for an Iranian invasion which ultimately is what the US wants is simply even more thinner than the previous two war's in the region lead by the US. And ofcause the economic reasons for standing by Iran and China

I just don't think we should side with terrorists.

Iran a country is a terrorist ? When was the last time they invaded another country? had a war? Who currently has nuclear armaments in the region btw? etc..

 

[koffiejunkie]

kilo39, have you been to Zimbabwe lately?

Oh wait, I forgot. The extra three digits in the inflation was added by malicious western media. There are enough jobs and food for everyone. It's safe to critisize the government. Surely the 6 million odd Zimbabwians in S.A. are just on holiday?

 

[marine1]

Iran a country is a terrorist ? When was the last time they invaded another country? had a war? Who currently has nuclear armaments in the region btw? etc..

Iran is sponsoring terror whether you want to accept it or not. Israel has every right to protect herself. I would rather she had the nukes than Iran.

 

[kilo39]

kilo39, have you been to Zimbabwe lately?

Oh wait, I forgot. The extra three digits in the inflation was added by malicious western media. There are enough jobs and food for everyone. It's safe to critisize the government. Surely the 6 million odd Zimbabwians in S.A. are just on holiday?

I in no way support the zim government (and thought the cheering of bob despicable.) Simply saying the article has an agenda, ie, our truth verse everyone elses.

Iran is sponsoring terror whether you want to accept it or not. Israel has every right to protect herself. I would rather she had the nukes than Iran.

How many times exactly would you like the IAEA to verify the non-weaponisation of Iran's nuclear program? Oh none at all 'cause George says it's true!

///bit like the weapons inspectors verifying the non-existence of Iraq WMD: but George said it was true! Who is the idiot here?

///or even Iran funding the Democratically Elected Government of [-]Palestine[/-] no, what shall we call it Nowhere Land?

 

[marine1]

/// Why did we expect anything more from someone who clearly supports terrorism?

 

[lsuacner]

So, when South Africa embraces a democratically elected leadership that stands in the way of America stealing Arab oil and subjecting it's citizens to lives led under American supported Tyrants, then we're bad?

Yes. Arab countries are much like the RSA of 30 years ago, if America were to affect change there like it did here and gain oil in the process, count those people as lucky, because it took a long time before RSA was handed over. I don't call RSA a democracy though, as people vote based on skin colour and not political policy.

Just like George Bush said: "You are either with us, or against us"

Anyway this article is so subjective it is not funny. I'm surprised he does not mention that the ANC was once classified as a "terrorist organisation" by his much loved goverment.

The ANC was a terrorist organisation, it killed innocent people, it resorted to violence. The same hate you have for the NP because of their actions, you should have towards the ANC also.
ANC has racists policies.
Ditto for the NP
ANC killed innocent people
Ditto for the NP
ANC steals from its people, doesn't care at all for everyone, but the 5% of South-Africans connected to people in high places.
The NP cared for 5% of the country.

 

[arf9999]

Devil's Advocate: The article makes factual points that are common knowledge, but on what benchmark are they judging South Africa's moral position? The USA's? With the USA's recent history I'm not convinced on their moral superiority.

 

[lsuacner]

Devil's Advocate: The article makes factual points that are common knowledge, but on what benchmark are they judging South Africa's moral position? The USA's? With the USA's recent history I'm not convinced on their moral superiority.

The accuser is not blameless, though if that is RSAs only defence, then RSA is in dire straights.

I personally feel the US is doing a great job, invading countries for oil, establishing a iron fist everywhere, is preferable to China doing so.

Now, most South-Africans think the US is evil and so forth, they often express strong opinions about Bush also. However, comparisons can be drawn between Mbeki and Bush.
Bush makes war and brings democracy to a country ruled by an evil dictator and in the process steals oil.

Mbeki sits on his ass and allows a whole country to starve.
Mbeki sits on his ass while 50% of RSA's population will die of HIV/AIDS.

So lets face it, the ANC likes to proclaim their achievements when they ask for international aid, they however forget to mention they are close friends with the axis of evil. The ANC doesn't care about human rights, black or white for that matter.

Now Bush administration doesn't care either, but they pretend to very well, and pretending is better than sitting on your ass and ignoring the problem.

 

[antowan]

Just like George Bush said: "You are either with us, or against us"

Anyway this article is so subjective it is not funny. I'm surprised he does not mention that the ANC was once classified as a "terrorist organisation" by his much loved goverment.

The statement and opinion you want folks to hold doesn't stand for democratic societies sox.

Democratic societies hold one characteristic that voids any such statement and that is the simple fact that governments change, the people who run them change and that anything that happened in the past cannot be bestowed to the current democratically elect, because they are not the same people who ran the country. You can however apply this to countries like Zimbabwe as the government is still the same for over 2 decades now.

America of today is not the America of 2 decades ago. Get my drift?

 

[antowan]

I agree!
America is always right. U oppose them, u r a terrorist!

Sarcasm?

Well America isn't always right and folks can tell them so without being terrorists. I can think America is wrong without supporting their enemies. I am a Western minded African and therefor do side in general with Europe and America. There is nothing wrong with that. The only reason I am such is because I believe those societies in general have more freedom of the individual and that in the countries they generally oppose seem to have disgustingly poor records in development and civil liberties. I want to be free and have a nice modern, maintained environment where I live. If South Africa sides with the countries I generally don't find appealing I have to wonder if we will (in time) tend to become like them. I don't want to see that, so....

 

[lsuacner]

The statement and opinion you want folks to hold doesn't stand for democratic societies sox.

Democratic societies hold one characteristic that voids any such statement and that is the simple fact that governments change, the people who run them change and that anything that happened in the past cannot be bestowed to the current democratically elect, because they are not the same people who ran the country. You can however apply this to countries like Zimbabwe as the government is still the same for over 2 decades now.

America of today is not the America of 2 decades ago. Get my drift?

Actually, the comrades of 2 decades ago, comprises our current government and high ranking officials.

 

[antowan]

Actually, the comrades of 2 decades ago, comprises our current government and high ranking officials.

True.

 

[antowan]

Devil's Advocate: The article makes factual points that are common knowledge, but on what benchmark are they judging South Africa's moral position? The USA's? With the USA's recent history I'm not convinced on their moral superiority.

I'm also waiting to see if the next presidency will have better judgment. For one I would love to see when America realizes that no war is worth the effort if the total domination of the enemy isn't labeled, printed and stuck to the front of every tank. America (nor any nation on earth) can expect to fight and be friends of the people it aims to invade. Iraq, Vietnam et al are examples in point.

 

[koffiejunkie]

I in no way support the zim government (and thought the cheering of bob despicable.) Simply saying the article has an agenda, ie, our truth verse everyone elses.

That's called perspective, not agenda. The author gives his take on things through his perspective, which, as an American, is certainly shaped by his governments aggressive fear-of-terrorism propaganda.

 

[koffiejunkie]

Oh, and 'agenda' isn't neccessarily such a bad thing. If the agenda is to get people to ease off on their apathy and ignorance and get them to question the actions of their leaders, that is a GOOD thing.

 

[antowan]

That's called perspective, not agenda. The author gives his take on things through his perspective, which, as an American, is certainly shaped by his governments aggressive fear-of-terrorism propaganda.

Look, lets be honest, the author is conservative in the American context, but what he said is not untrue. Can you point out something that isn't true? You have to be honest, the ANC's abhorrence of sanctions (a consistent abhorrence at that) flies in the face of their anti-Apartheid campaign.

 

[koffiejunkie]

Look, lets be honest, the author is conservative in the American context, but what he said is not untrue. Can you point out something that isn't true? You have to be honest, the ANC's abhorrence of sanctions (a consistent abhorrence at that) flies in the face of their anti-Apartheid campaign.

I wasn't saying anything he said is untrue - I tend to agree with most things he said. Unfortunately some on this forum take take their own understanding as the absolute truth....

I completely agree on the issue of sanctions. The ANC, and Mbeki in particular, wants to have authority on all things african. But he/they are setting the worst example possible. They're blowing a pretty big chance to fix the real problems for good, but instead, they're just adding more fuel to the fire.