Why, the Beloved Country?

Sorry to burst your bubble but the author "James Kirchick is assistant to the editor in chief of the New Republic." is certainly not a conservative. The New Republic is a liberal rag of 'Stephen Glass' and 'shock Troops' shame :o

Probably going to be sorry I asked, but : what on earth is the relevance of that to this thread?? :confused:

And furthermore, you post the views of a self-proclaimed liberal who supports the war, and yet you STILL think that approval or opposition to American foreign policy actually has a flying f##k to do with being on the 'left' or 'right'!?? :o

It honestly beggars belief.
 
Rooinek, the economy is improving, no one is disputing that. But that's not a guarantee that every other aspect of life in S.A. is also improving or even that nothing is deteriorating.

And the economic numbers aren't worth a hell of a to the avarage South African either. For example, when negotiations fail and even a massive go-slow cannot get a 6% (or 7 or 8 - doesn't really matter) pay rise out of governemnt, but at the same time cost of living rises by far more than that, year on year, the single digit inflation number is little consolation.

Black people seem to think white people just want to sit around and moan and criticise the current governement for the sake of it. I don't think people realise just how much so most of us really want S.A. to be a huge success. Some are just more willing to stick it out than others. Some (like myself) stick it out for a long time, but in the end it takes one small event to push you over the edge and make you decide "this is enough, I don't have to deal with this."


Now, with regards to expats seeing the country in such a negative light. Imagine coming back after a year or two, and seeing things like:
- the potholes that were on the roads you used to drive every day - busy roads in johannesburg - are still there.
- the traffic light on the corner of Hendrik Verwoerd and Hunter, that you reported in november 2004, is still missing a number of bulbs, despite the fact that there has been numerous accidents at this particular intersection in the meantime. (I sincerely hope this has been fixed since the last time I was there).
- chaos on Jo'burg's roads are worse than before (after driving in London, where there are many more cars, Jo'burg is a shock) and traffic officers are more bribable than ever.
- the newspapers tell me that govt. ministers get away with more and are less acountable than ever.
- power cuts are now so regular that some companies are forced to plan their productivity around it.
- Telkom, who cannot even dream of coping with their own workload and growth, wants to lay off how-many-ever-thousand employees, despite being the most profitable telco in the world. Meaning you and I are going to wait even longer for our phone to be installed.
- the reliability of cellphone networks are worse - Network/connection errors, dropped calls, getting through to someone's voicemail when their phones are on and available are far more common

Can you see how it's natural to think that things are deteriorating? These things are in your face, every day - no way to avoid it. To make matters worse, for the average middle class South African who left a year or two ago, coming back has another unpleasant suprise: nothing that affect our lives have changed for the better. Simply that. There's nothing more to it.

Considering the excellent economic growth, and the massive number of unemployed people who could be put to work fixing and building roads, the deterioration in road conditions far exceeds the roadworks done in the same time.

There's no shortage of money in S.A. to fix things. Theres' no shortage of idle hands either. Somehow government just continues to prove themselves incapable of making this work properly.
 
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The very fact that this thread has diverted from SA supporting terrorism to SA GDP and crime tells me that we do in fact have our own problems to deal with and should not stick our nose in issues with Iran, Iraq and the US etc :) :p

Is it not more viable to compare those SA economic stats with things like SA birth rate and average income etc??? Comparing stats like that between a developed nation and a developing nation is wrong isn't it? Seriously Im asking because I don't know.
 
Probably going to be sorry I asked, but : what on earth is the relevance of that to this thread?? :confused:

And furthermore, you post the views of a self-proclaimed liberal who supports the war, and yet you STILL think that approval or opposition to American foreign policy actually has a flying f##k to do with being on the 'left' or 'right'!?? :o

It honestly beggars belief.

*sigh*

http://mybroadband.co.za/vb/showpost.php?p=1195581&postcount=39

:o

A self proclaimed decent liberal( oxymoron :D) :rolleyes: Oh by the way I don't think aproval or opposition American foreign policy actually is actually based on 'left' or 'right'. The places you pull this stuff out from :sick:
 
As predicted you are ignoring any facts inconvenient to your argument. A particular topic was under discussion: You asked for evidence for the decline of infrastructure, it was provided; In response you segue into an orthogonal rant about general economic development in SA (none which any of us will really dispute --- Yippee! Good for us --- so much for our prejudice) while ignoring the original argument (which you lost in a definitive fashion).

Oh, and another thing: if you are going to make snarky little comments on your interlocutors' intelligence you should bother to check your spelling --- you might otherwise be thought to be experiancing some subconcious delusion of adequacy. Which would be silly.

Actually, I had not ignored the topic, it was of little consequence, except to serve as "truth" to your broader argument.

However, I will engage with you on that particular point. I acknowledge that infrastructural needs are a challenge after years of one-sided development by the previous government, and general wear and tear. However, I also have to acknowledge that there has been a lot of infrastructural improvement in other places e.g Soweto, the Greenstone/Edenvale area, etc.

Furthermore, the country is in the grips of a construction boom that has more or less been facilitated by the state, see source: http://www.eprop.co.za/news/article.aspx?idArticle=6199, another source:http://www.busrep.co.za/index.php?fArticleId=3961611&fSectionId=642&fSetId=662.

The above point to the fact that the government is not resting on its laurels, I acknowledge that in terms on national, provincial and municipal projects there is a problem of implementation, however, in the same breath you have to note that there seems to be an acknowledgement and commitment by government to remedy the situation, please remeber that the key tenet of ASGISA is infrastructural development.

Stop pretending to be angry because I disagree with you, and have identified a flaw in you arguments and acknowledge the merits in some of my views.:D
 
The very fact that this thread has diverted from SA supporting terrorism to SA GDP and crime tells me that we do in fact have our own problems to deal with and should not stick our nose in issues with Iran, Iraq and the US etc :) :p

Is it not more viable to compare those SA economic stats with things like SA birth rate and average income etc??? Comparing stats like that between a developed nation and a developing nation is wrong isn't it? Seriously Im asking because I don't know.

I was comparing SA to fellow BRIC (Brazil, Russia, India and China). China of course has the highest GDP growth rate, but SA is the undisputed runner-up. The source is Reserve Bank publications. It is standard to economic practice to compare SA to fellow BRIC countries.

Average income is growing phenomenally mainly because of the growing incomes in black households. We expect it to taper off in the future as the speed of "catch-up" naturally decelerates.

Birth-rate is decreasing everywhere.
 
However, I will engage with you on that particular point. I acknowledge that infrastructural needs are a challenge after years of one-sided development by the previous government, and general wear and tear. However, I also have to acknowledge that there has been a lot of infrastructural improvement in other places e.g Soweto, the Greenstone/Edenvale area, etc.

I believe the trick is to actually maintain what you already have, and to improve the areas that needs it, not let existing infrastructure fall into disrepair, while improving the rest.

Improving one side of society, but failing another, does not make you a winner.

Government is supposed to look after everybody's needs. That is the purpose of a government, yes?
 
*sigh*

http://mybroadband.co.za/vb/showpost.php?p=1195581&postcount=39

:o

A self proclaimed decent liberal( oxymoron :D) :rolleyes: Oh by the way I don't think aproval or opposition American foreign policy actually is actually based on 'left' or 'right'. The places you pull this stuff out from :sick:
Ya, your thought processes are pretty sick, as in unhealthy and unsupportable by rational thought.

I believe the usual thought process you apply is : opposes war -> appeaser -> liberal.

Feel free to correct me if I'm wrong. ;)
 
Ya, your thought processes are pretty sick, as in unhealthy and unsupportable by rational thought.

I believe the usual thought process you apply is : opposes war -> appeaser -> liberal.

Feel free to correct me if I'm wrong. ;)

No opposes war because the enamy will fight back, peace at any cost in the future -> appeaser-> liberal

;)
 
No opposes war because the enamy will fight back, peace at any cost in the future -> appeaser-> liberal
;)
Yeah well, you can't know the intents of people and you've certainly misused the term in discussions on the forum according to your above flow diagram, so I think I'm just going to go ahead and say "BS".
 
My question is ... why spend so much time worrying about things happening outside SA if they can't even keep their own room clean? This place is a mess - but our government is damn quick to criticise if anybody else missteps ... except Mugabe of course.
 
My question is ... why spend so much time worrying about things happening outside SA if they can't even keep their own room clean? This place is a mess - but our government is damn quick to criticise if anybody else missteps ... except [-]Mugabe[/-] any despot in Africa of course.
:sick:
 
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