Why, the Beloved Country?

marine1 said:
/// Why did we expect anything more from someone who clearly supports terrorism?
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If you have no tanks, planes or big guns and those things are being used against you with no recourse to justice, law or moral authority THEN a person will use whatever is available: in this case terrorism or suicide bombings.

I am under no illusions that my spiffy F16's have any more authority in their killing of woman and children than any other method of death or attack. To assume the high ground is to signup to the adage: might is right.
 
If you don't have the same kit as your opponent, then maybe a better tactic is to get the international community behind you, and to avoid the company of nations who the rest of the world regard as trouble makers too.

Blowing up civillians doesn't win you any friends and does nothing but further isolate you.
 
Its not so much a matter of siding with the Western governments as it is a matter of siding with the people of those western countries. While the governments may have hidden agendas the vast majority of the people are moral, peace-loving and kind people. Yes, they often get led astray and believe the lies but those so-called democratically elected governments of Hamas, Iran and all the rest also lie to their people. Except those governments dont think twice about ordering suicide bombings and the like.

With the exception of some black ops by some black agents in the western governments their governments and military are run by people with families and who are also only interested in security and peace and not world domination. Military action is planned to minimise the risk of innocent civilian life not to purposefully target it. Therein lies the difference between them. Lets side with people who dont want to blow up busses and trains and who dont conciously let their governments do the same.

I think the article is pointing out that we (SA) had the ability to effect the change needed to root out the evil and greed in western governments and we have lost out on that chance by supporting groups, nations and dictatorships who have no such desires.
 
Sorry to burst your bubble but the author "James Kirchick is assistant to the editor in chief of the New Republic." is certainly not a conservative. The New Republic is a liberal rag of 'Stephen Glass' and 'shock Troops' shame :o

Although he has come up with a few decent articles

Why I'm on the decent side of the left

I still consider myself a liberal. I am pro-choice, pro-union (except when it comes to grad student nonworkers), pro-gay marriage. I support progressive taxation and the estate tax, I am an environmentalist and an advocate of government funding of elections on the national, state and local levels. I even believe in single-payer (government-funded) health care. Political pollsters would consider me a pretty left-wing liberal. Yet at Yale, I am at best a centrist, but most identify me as a conservative. How is this possible?

I am considered a right-winger at Yale primarily because I was an ardent supporter of war in Iraq and because I defend the right of Israel to defend itself against annihilation. Clearly, a college campus is not an accurate representation of the political spectrum, yet this divide on campus amongst liberals is part of a national political phenomenon. In the spring 2002 issue of the left Dissent magazine, editor Michael Walzer wrote what has become one of the most important essays since Sept. 11, titled, "Can there be a decent left?" In it, he comments on the self-loathing and alienation that many leftists feel in the presence of patriotism.

He tells his fellow leftists, "We certainly need something better than the rag-tag Marxism with which so much of the left operates today -- whose chief effect is to turn world politics into a cheap melodrama." It took a lot of courage for someone like Walzer to write what he did, especially in a magazine like Dissent. Unfortunately, many on the left have yet to heed his advice. But Walzer never went so far as to bestow explicitly this type of liberalism with the appellation he clearly infers: that is, the "indecent left."

The fundamental difference between the decent and indecent left is their contrasting views of American power. The indecent left views American military might through the lens of Vietnam and therefore regards our armed forces as the greatest threat to world peace. Walzer wrote, "The leftist critique, from the Vietnam years forward -- has been stupid, overwrought, grossly inaccurate. It is the product of what Philip Roth, in his novel 'I Married a Communist,' aptly described as 'the combination of embitterment and not thinking.'"

The indecent believes the U.S. military is a brutish power which merely serves to enact the imperialist designs of our corporate-controlled government. Decent liberals are the opposite; they understand the American military has been and continues to be the greatest force for good in the world. We accept that it has made mistakes in the past, yet we are much more optimistic than the far-left isolationists because we hope to harness the military for positive goals, while they would rather just eliminate it all together.

While the indecent left stresses diplomacy to the point of endangering our national security and the security of millions of others, the decent left knows that it has been American bombs and bullets, not words, which have saved the world from tyranny three times in the last century. I was almost moved to tears two weeks ago at the scenes of a liberated Baghdad; there have been few moments in my life when I have felt prouder to be an American. The indecent left's response to the liberation of 22 million formerly enslaved Iraqi people was predictable, yet still appalling. Rather than see my fellow liberals pleased with the fact that we had freed an entire people from the iron fist of a maniacal despot, they were bitter and cynically rationalizing. Simply put, decent liberals want the world to look more like America (for our own safety). We know that peoples in oppressive regimes largely agree with us, and we are earnest in our attempts to go about making this happen.

Another source of disappointment has been academia. Polls have shown that students are no longer as liberal as their professors, especially on matters of foreign policy. With regard to the war, the academic left has largely chosen to employ emotional rhetoric as opposed to intellectual reasoning to defend their beliefs from student critics. While worse at other schools like Columbia, the statements of some Yale professors has been quite disturbing over this past academic year. Two weeks ago, I co-wrote a column for a Web site regarding an anti-war "teach-in." Simply for exposing the conspiratorial statements of these academics, a professor labeled my co-author and me as "neo-Stalinist" and accused us of serving some mysterious "tribal agenda," (which of the 12 tribes he was referring to, only he can say). Yet in true Stalinist fashion, he then called upon the Yale College Students for Democracy to "clean [its] house," and purge my co-author and me from their ranks.

This may come as a shock to liberal students at Yale, but in my experiences over the past year I have generally found my conservative peers to be the most intelligent, thought-provoking and open minded students on campus. The left at Yale would rather scream and yell about perceived injustices on the street than engage in intellectual discussion about pertinent issues. I suggest that liberal students attend a Conservative Party or Party of the Right debate at least once in their time here, and marvel at the intellectualism that is possible for students to achieve when discussing current events.

So to my liberal readers, I am sorry if I have appeared "conservative" in these pages over the past months. Don't worry, I am still a registered Democrat (from Massachusetts no less) and plan to be one until the day I die. My writing is rather the mark of an outraged liberal -- a liberal ashamed of what much of the left has become in America. I just hope you will leave Noam Chomsky, Robert Fisk, and Congresswoman Barbara Lee in the dustbin and join me in the exciting realm of the decent left. Trust me, it's not that scary.
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For the posse....

Campus left silences opposing views

As these examples show, many Yale leftists are loathe to tolerate opinions different from their own. When their ideas are challenged or attempts are made to encourage intellectual diversity on campus, liberals tend to hurl epithets that have a chilling effect on discourse. Passion for one's ideas is well and good, but shouting others down with irrational cries of "racist" and "McCarthyite" is hardly liberal at all.
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Left Out

So much for dating a proud, progressive, and ostensibly tolerant liberal. But with him, as with other liberals I know, tolerance does not always extend to appreciating someone else’s differing political views
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Now you know ;)

Back To Topic:
 
Why would the ANC, which came to power with such worldwide respect and goodwill, be willing to squander its moral authority so easily? A large part of the explanation rests with Mandela himself. Although he is regarded as perhaps the most inspirational figure in the world, the fact is that throughout his life, Mandela has praised an unseemly crew of dictators -- including Fidel Castro ("Long live Comrade Fidel Castro!" he said in 1991), Moammar Kadafi (whom he visited in 1997 in defiance of American objections) and Yasser Arafat ("a comrade in arms") -- for their support of the ANC while it was in exile. And he has remained quiet about Mugabe even though a strong rebuke might influence current African leaders to do the same, and Mandela's reticence is a stain on his otherwise illustrious legacy.
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He hit the nail on the head there. Bravo
 
marine1 said:
Oh yes but Iran is so peaceful? Kilo's mates seem to be no better than his enemies.
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Of course Glowing Ahemi is peaceful. It's just the warmongers blood lust again. Remember poor Hitler. After all Hitler did say "I am insulted by the persistent assertion that I want war. Am I a fool? War! It would settle nothing." :o
 
"The only thing that frustrates me about Robert Mugabe is that he is so damned incorruptible," Andrew Young, Jimmy Carter's ambassador"

I wonder if he's still alive and what he thinks today?
 
This is just the excuse america needed to expedite the missile barrier they wanted to build. And then they will just upset the Russian bear even further, who has just re_started its long distance bomber flights. But back to the topic of our beloved country: Methinks it is the African virus that is slowly creeping though our land. I predict that our country will just carry on with a slow death until we are as the rest of this continent.
Just keep a eye on the roads. When road repairs stop and potholes grow and signs are erected to warn you about the holes....
 
There are so many roadworks on the go but mostly its all for 2010 and in places where it will get really noticed by visitors. Typical Banana Republic mentally of making things look good but not really making a difference.
 
koffiejunkie said:
I wasn't saying anything he said is untrue - I tend to agree with most things he said. Unfortunately some on this forum take take their own understanding as the absolute truth....

I completely agree on the issue of sanctions. The ANC, and Mbeki in particular, wants to have authority on all things african. But he/they are setting the worst example possible. They're blowing a pretty big chance to fix the real problems for good, but instead, they're just adding more fuel to the fire.
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It was late. Now it is early! Jy maak my lus vir koffie blikemmer! Damnit! Now I HAVE to walk to the kitchen.

:)
 
Road runner said:
Just keep a eye on the roads. When road repairs stop and potholes grow and signs are erected to warn you about the holes....
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That is what the remaining settlers in Kenya told us when we said we were from South-Africa. The contrast between the RSA we saw every 2 years when we returned to RSA on vacation was shocking. If you live here you get used to the way things look and feel and do not realise that everything is deteriorating.

Freshy-ZN said:
There are so many roadworks on the go but mostly its all for 2010 and in places where it will get really noticed by visitors. Typical Banana Republic mentally of making things look good but not really making a difference.
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In Kenya they would rebuild the road where the president is supposed to be soon, which is why he thinks his country has perfectly paved roads throughout, even to the farthest region. They roads will be built as quickly as possible, after 3 months it would start deteriorating again.
 
lsuacner said:
That is what the remaining settlers in Kenya told us when we said we were from South-Africa. The contrast between the RSA we saw every 2 years when we returned to RSA on vacation was shocking. If you live here you get used to the way things look and feel and do not realise that everything is deteriorating.



In Kenya they would rebuild the road where the president is supposed to be soon, which is why he thinks his country has perfectly paved roads throughout, even to the farthest region. They roads will be built as quickly as possible, after 3 months it would start deteriorating again.
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How you identify yourself and the framework that shapes your views comes out very clearly. In any case, can you enlighten us minnows on how everything is deteriorating?
 
NameOfBeast said:
We could, but you wouldn't listen.
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I think a more truthful answer would be, "it is an opinion we hold, we are not aware of any concrete evidence to support such an opinion, but we feel that SA will fail without the requisite white stewardship".
 
Rooinek said:
I think a more truthful answer would be, "it is an opinion we hold, we are not aware of any concrete evidence to support such an opinion, but we feel that SA will fail without the requisite white stewardship".
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You just have to make it about race, don't you? There are perfectly good and competent black leaders, but, as we saw with our now former deputy health minister, when they take initiative and actually get stuff done, they stick out like sore thumbs and get axed at the drop of a hat.
 
@Rooinek: Please try to make a few valid points. Put some thought into it. Hell, even do some research.

This country is not what it was, and in some aspects we can be thankful of that, but it's also not where it should be.
 
Nod said:
@Rooinek: Please try to make a few valid points. Put some thought into it. Hell, even do some research.

This country is not what it was, and in some aspects we can be thankful of that, but it's also not where it should be.
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I guess you guys are experiancing some difficulty in exercising those brain cells, it is a Monday anyway.

An individual with a more balanced approach would note at the failings attributable to the current government as well as their successes and then give an opinion of why they believe that the failings far outweigh the successes or vice-versa.

However, some proponents in this forum choose to look only at the failings and then pronouce a diagnosis.

This diagnoses in most instances seeks to suport their belief that things are definately going bad,I think the believe is that things have to go bad. This believe system is fed by prejudice.

Why prejudice you might ask? It is prejudice because it is an intellectual position taken regardless of how much objective information is available to a person.

I agree some things are not are going haywire, however, you have to balance this with the following:

SA's GDP growth average 5% between 2004 and 2006. This level of economic growth is higher than most emerging and developing markets.

This GDP growth has mainly been driven by the services sector and not the traditional mining sector. This has improved SA's resilience to the vagaries of international trade (SARB, 2007).

Inflation has declined from double-digit figures under the apartheid regime to single digit figures.

RSA has also experienced a steady increase in employment over the same period. Employment growth increased from 1% y/y in 1989 to 4% y/y in 2006.

Furthermore, the number of dollar millionaires in South Africa has increased to 48,586 from less than 25,000 three years ago (World Wealth Report 2007). Women make up one-third of this group.

Globally, the number of high net worth individuals grew by 8.3% in 2006, whilst, they grew by 13.3% during 2006 in South Africa (World Wealth Report 2007).

Globally, it takes 4 to 5 generations to rise from poverty to affluent middle-class, in SA, it takes one generation (Unilever Institute “black diamonds” study).

I could rattle off some more figures, however, as a summary, I want to emphasize the fact that even though SA is experiancing some challenges with respect to crime, health e.tc., it has also managed to create a lot improvements to the lives of its citizens, and has excelled in some quarters.

On a macroeconomic level, things have never been better for a broad spectrum of the populace.

Have a balanced view and get rid of your conscious or subconcious prejudice.
 
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