Why you will never be able to load your brain into a computer

[Bryn]

No, there is actually no physical evidence for consciousness.
The mirror test, verbal reporting, brain scans etc would all give the same results if we were just complex machines who responded and had no consciousness at all. How would you tell the difference between a machine feeling emotion and a machine imitating emotion?


If you can feel emotion you have a soul. Otherwise you're just a machine programmed to imitate emotion

Machines incapable of emotion would certainly not exhibit the same brain activity as a being that was capable of emotion. Furthermore, if a machine was not both self aware and aware of its environment, it could not pass the tests we use to determine consciousness. I'm not claiming that a sentient general AI would definitely be capable of emotion - but it would be conscious. Consciousness and emotion are not the same thing.

Your claim about souls is without basis. As I've told you, we'd be extinct if we couldn't feel emotion. There is no evidence for souls, and the existence of souls creates many serious complications concerning our existence.

Extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence. Similarly, that which is claimed without evidence can be dismissed without evidence.

On a related note though, why do you feel that souls need to exist? It's not like quarks, which were theorised and later discovered due to a need for their existence. With regards to almost everything in the natural world, the simplest explanation tends to be true. A soul is an inelegant, unnecessary and human-like complication that adds nothing but false comfort to people with supernatural beliefs.

 

[C4Cat]

Would you ask the same question about pain...why do we 'feel' pain?

Dogs 'feel' pain in the sense that it seems like they have a very similar experience to it as us: They intentionally avoid & sulk from it in a way that is more involved than mere Pavlovian conditioning. Why then can't we imagine emotions as being a similar thing to pain but with more subtleties; as a response not to nerve impulses but as a response to social and mental cues. If there's nothing special about pain, I see no reason to think there's anything special about emotions...at least not to the extent that we need to attribute their occurrence to some mystical thing.

We feel pain because we have souls. If I program a robot computer to avoid a hot plate (or something 'painful') would you say the computer feels pain?

 

[access]

our consciousness makes decisions based on past experience and/or the need to gain experience.

i think emotions are necessary to promote reproduction, upload ourselves and we have less need to reproduce and the chemicals driving emotions will be come obsolete. imo.

 

[C4Cat]

Feeling in the emotional sense is just a type of experience. Assuming the necessity of an external component to the human creature to experience or be conscious of anything, why this fixation on emotions. Emotions are no more evidence of a soul than sight or hearing. Can you admit your fixation on emotions is because you associate your emotions with your sense of self?

I'm fixating on emotions because that was the topic of discussion. I feel the same way about all experience. The ability to experience is evidence of a soul.

 

[Nick333]

Sure - there's a literal break in continuity. But if when I awaken I have the perception of having the same sorts of principles and ideas as before I went into surgery - to me the continuity isn't in question. Maybe I should rather define it as continuity of content, rather than the literal existence of consciousness itself - because I'm obviously aware that by taking drugs, going to sleep, surgery etc. we do experience intermissions & drastic temporary alterations.

Ja, to my mind you're just reducing the sense of self to a sense of self. What if you changed your mind about absolutely everything at once is there still continuity? Or, is there just a continuity of experience. If so, what happens when that continuity of experience is interrupted by a general anesthetic? I'm just musing out loud.

 

[Bryn]

our consciousness makes decisions based on past experience and/or the need to gain experience.

i think emotions are necessary to promote reproduction, upload ourselves and we have less need to reproduce and the chemicals driving emotions will be come obsolete. imo.

Emotions allow us to have complex social interactions. That need will not diminish just because we're in a virtual reality. And it's unlikely that reproduction would be impossible in a virtual world, or the demand to live in it would be small. Reproduction would likely just involve some highly complex process that considers the DNS makeup of the parents and randomises an AI personality based on certain restrictions.

If we move to a virtual reality it will likely be indistinguishable from regular reality, with full sensory perception and visual fidelity equivalent to real life.

Pretend you're currently in a virtual reality. Do you suddenly feel like you have no need for emotion and no desire to continue living? Of course not.

 

[access]

We feel pain because we have souls. If I program a robot computer to avoid a hot plate (or something 'painful') would you say the computer feels pain?

we feel pain because of the need to protect our body,

you put your hand on a hot plate and your brain tells you to remove it, it is beind damaged.

 

[saor]

The ability to experience is evidence of a soul.

It's evidence of a lack of understanding of consciousness and mammalian brains.

 

[access]

Emotions allow us to have complex social interactions. That need will not diminish just because we're in a virtual reality.

If we move to a virtual reality it will likely be indistinguishable from regular reality, with full sensory perception and visual fidelity equivalent to real life.

Pretend you're currently in a virtual reality. Do you suddenly feel like you have no need for emotion and no desire to continue living? Of course not.

no these things dont happen suddenly, they happen over time. social interactions arise from the need to reproduce. you should not be bound to the idea that no need for emotion means no desire for living. You could say plants 'desire' to live.

 

[Nick333]

I'm fixating on emotions because that was the topic of discussion. I feel the same way about all experience. The ability to experience is evidence of a soul.

Well then define soul. So, far it just looks like something that experiences rather than some thing that actual does anything. We know that memory and emotion and even sight and hearing are reliant on the brain because a damaged brain can lose the ability to process all of these experiences. What does the soul do other than experience what the brain can process?

 

[C4Cat]

Machines incapable of emotion would certainly not exhibit the same brain activity as a being that was capable of emotion.

They would exhibit the same brain activity if they were programmed to do so. If they imitate feeling emotion well enough it would include showing off the correct brain activity.

Furthermore, if a machine was not both self aware and aware of its environment, it could not pass the tests we use to determine consciousness. I'm not claiming that a sentient general AI would definitely be capable of emotion - but it would be conscious. Consciousness and emotion are not the same thing.

There are no tests for consciousness. You don't even know what consciousness is. If a machine has awareness of itself and/or it's environment then it would have a soul since awareness is part of the spiritual realm. Physical things do not have awareness. You can can examine every bit of your body from the organs right down to it chemicals, molecules and atoms and you will find no trace of awareness or consciousness. This is because awareness and consciousness are spiritual in nature, not physical. Emotions are physical. Feeling emotions is spiritual just like all experience.

Your claim about souls is without basis. As I've told you, we'd be extinct if we couldn't feel emotion. There is no evidence for souls, and the existence of souls creates many serious complications concerning our existence.

I agree we'd be extinct if we couldn't feel emotion. We are spiritual beings as well as physical. Both is required for survival. There is no evidence for consciousness either and the existence of consciousness creates many serious complications concerning our existence.

Extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence. Similarly, that which is claimed without evidence can be dismissed without evidence.

On a related note though, why do you feel that souls need to exist? It's not like quarks, which were theorised and later discovered due to a need for their existence. With regards to almost everything in the natural world, the simplest explanation tends to be true. A soul is an inelegant, unnecessary and human-like complication that adds nothing but false comfort to people with supernatural beliefs.

A soul is essential, nothing makes sense without it. As I explained physical things do not have awareness.

 

[dualmeister]

They should use Zuma's brain to experiment with this first

Start the upload

 

[C4Cat]

Well then define soul. So, far it just looks like something that experiences rather than some thing that actual does anything. We know that memory and emotion and even sight and hearing are reliant on the brain because a damaged brain can lose the ability to process all of these experiences. What does the soul do other than experience what the brain can process?

That's what your soul is. Your soul experiences, your soul learns, your soul motivates and feels and loves. Your soul chooses. Physical matter does none of these things. Your soul is spiritual and not physical and continues to experience, learn even after your physical manifestation has ceased.

 

[Nick333]

A soul is essential, nothing makes sense without it. As I explained physical things do not have awareness.

Oh, I see. So, reality must conform to the limits of human (or specifically your) intellect? Nice, try. You've honestly never considered that you may just be a bit too thick to understand human consciousness? Honestly?

 

[access]

They would exhibit the same brain activity if they were programmed to do so. If they imitate feeling emotion well enough it would include showing off the correct brain activity.


There are no tests for consciousness. You don't even know what consciousness is. If a machine has awareness of itself and/or it's environment then it would have a soul since awareness is part of the spiritual realm. Physical things do not have awareness. You can can examine every bit of your body from the organs right down to it chemicals, molecules and atoms and you will find no trace of awareness or consciousness. This is because awareness and consciousness are spiritual in nature, not physical. Emotions are physical. Feeling emotions is spiritual just like all experience.



I agree we'd be extinct if we couldn't feel emotion. We are spiritual beings as well as physical. Both is required for survival. There is no evidence for consciousness either and the existence of consciousness creates many serious complications concerning our existence.


A soul is essential, nothing makes sense without it. As I explained physical things do not have awareness.

its just the voice inside your head, like when people ask what language do you think in, that...

a soul is essential, for religion, no religion can function without it, it is not essential for sense. everything still makes sense without the concept, if you have no will to live otherwise you should of been a tree.

 

[Nick333]

That's what your soul is. Your soul experiences, your soul learns, your soul motivates and feels and loves. Your soul chooses. Physical matter does none of these things. Your soul is spiritual and not physical and continues to experience, learn even after your physical manifestation has ceased.

No the brain and the rest of your body does all that. Damage the brain in the "right" sort of way and you stop loving or fearing, seeing or hearing. The only role we have found for a soul would seem to be to be aware of it all.

 

[Bryn]

They would exhibit the same brain activity if they were programmed to do so. If they imitate feeling emotion well enough it would include showing off the correct brain activity.

There are no tests for consciousness. You don't even know what consciousness is. If a machine has awareness of itself and/or it's environment then it would have a soul since awareness is part of the spiritual realm. Physical things do not have awareness. You can can examine every bit of your body from the organs right down to it chemicals, molecules and atoms and you will find no trace of awareness or consciousness. This is because awareness and consciousness are spiritual in nature, not physical. Emotions are physical. Feeling emotions is spiritual just like all experience.

I agree we'd be extinct if we couldn't feel emotion. We are spiritual beings as well as physical. Both is required for survival. There is no evidence for consciousness either and the existence of consciousness creates many serious complications concerning our existence.

A soul is essential, nothing makes sense without it. As I explained physical things do not have awareness.

The highlighted bits are your personal views and are unrelated to reality until such time as they are proven true. Your argument that a soul is essential is unconvincing to say the least. Please elaborate on why we need a spiritual realm to exist as we do.

Again, I'm not debating whether or not a sentient machine can feel emotion. There are humans that can't feel emotion - it's clearly not required to function intelligently. We are talking about consciousness, and again, there are established tests available to determine consciousness. I don't see much point in talking about this particular point, as science has been testing consciousness for decades.

no things dont happen suddenly, things happen over time. social interactions arise from the need to reproduce. you should not be bound to the idea that no need for emotion means no desire for living. You could say plants 'desire' to live.

I wasn't implying that a lack of emotion negates a desire to live. Indeed, many people around the world are incapable of feeling emotion. You had made it sound humans would feel no desire to gain experience or essentially continue living normally in a virtual reality.

Our social skills evolved from a need to survive and reproduce, but that no longer drives it entirely. A countless number of people care little for social interactions or reproduction. Survival has taken precedence for most people, and virtual reality would make that easier than ever before.

 

[C4Cat]

No the brain and the rest of your body does all that. Damage the brain in the "right" sort of way and you stop loving or fearing, seeing or hearing. The only role we have found for a soul would seem to be to be aware of it all.

You saying physical matter is able to experience and has awareness. Awesome. So is all physical matter able to experience and has awareness? Or only some of it? What's the difference between the chemicals and molecules that make up my physical manifestation and the chemicals and molecules that make up the sun? Or do you think the sun has awareness too?

Of course you can't experience fear if the body is unable to manifest fear. You can't experience sight if you have no physical eyes.
As I already pointed out with regard to emotions - emotions are physical things, but 'feeling' emotions is spiritual.
Damage the body or brain so it cannot manifest fear, sight or hearing and you will no longer 'feel' fear or 'experience' sight. Obviously.
Love, however, is not an emotion. Love transcends the physical completely and is purely spiritual in nature.

 

[koeksGHT]

Love, however, is not an emotion. Love transcends the physical completely and is purely spiritual in nature.

Love, is just a chemical to get us to bone more and have offspring.

 

[Nick333]

You saying physical matter is able to experience and has awareness. Awesome. So is all physical matter able to experience and has awareness? Or only some of it? What's the difference between the chemicals and molecules that make up my physical manifestation and the chemicals and molecules that make up the sun? Or do you think the sun has awareness too?

Where did I say anything of the sort? It's sort of lovely that you're having a debate with a mental projection of a copy of myself in your own head. Just adds to the existential nature of the real conversation.

I have no firm opinions on the nature of consciousness. I'm just trying to establish why you feel that consciousness should have attributes. So far your only reasoning seems to be what makes sense to your own self.

Of course you can't experience fear if the body is unable to manifest fear. You can't experience sight if you have no physical eyes.
As I already pointed out with regard to emotions - emotions are physical things, but 'feeling' emotions is spiritual.
Damage the body or brain so it cannot manifest fear, sight or hearing and you will no longer 'feel' fear or 'experience' sight. Obviously.
Love, however, is not an emotion. Love transcends the physical completely and is purely spiritual in nature.

That's sweet, but not very satisfying to my own intellect. This conversation is going nowhere. Feel free to pursue it with the Nick333 in your own head, although I take no ownership or responsibility for any of the views he may or may not hold.