Windows 7 and IE split concerns

rpm

Admin
Staff member
Joined
Jul 22, 2003
Messages
65,795
Windows 7 and IE split concerns

The European Commission expressed scepticism late on Thursday over an announcement from Microsoft that it would strip Internet Explorer browsers from copies of its Windows 7 operating system sold in Europe.
 

diabolus

Executive Member
Joined
Feb 4, 2005
Messages
6,308
Well as i've said in another thread, people underestimate the schlep one has to go through if you don't have a browser as part of your OS install.

Microsoft will need to ship IE as an optional install, if they don't, how will people even begin to find their "alternative" browser? You actually need a browser to -find- other browsers ;).
I actually want to see how joe-average is going to get home with his shiny new Windows PC and not having a browser!?

And amusingly if Microsoft DO ship IE as an optional install, i can guarantee you now, 99% of average-joe europeans WILL install it. Even myself, who use Firefox 90% of the time will install it -anyway-.

As much as we enjoy the EU constantly hitting Microsoft with the one antitrust case after another, they don't actually add any value!! I mean attack them where they force PCs to have Windows on it or something at wholesale level, but giving me LESS "out of the box" is not exactly a winning situation. They just make life LESS convenient for the consumer. Besides, it's not like Windows 7 is going to be cheaper without IE ;/, so the only people getting shafted in this tale = us .
 
Last edited:

Toby

Senior Member
Joined
Apr 29, 2005
Messages
523
A small Batch file

They should make Microsoft Place links on the desktop that give you the option to download and install the browser of your choice.

Firefox at the Top and IE at the bottom of the List. The rest in the middle.

What is wrong with FTP to start the initial download. Remember it is available as a command from the "Dos Box" Command Window
 

diabolus

Executive Member
Joined
Feb 4, 2005
Messages
6,308
Toby said:
What is wrong with FTP to start the initial download. Remember it is available as a command from the "Dos Box" Command Window
..of course, assuming the files are hosted on an FTP site you know out of your head.

Also it's one thing to get MS to remove IE, totally different to expect them to supply working FTP links to other browsers...that's not really Microsoft's problem and hardly enforcable. Just like you can't force Symbian to supply links to Opera Mini when it comes with a built-in browser, you can't force MS to do have Opera/Firefox links. I'm pretty sure they'll put an IE link there , but the way these antitrust cases go with totally impractical consequences..chances are MS won't even be allowed to do that...
 

Keeper

Honorary Master
Joined
Mar 29, 2008
Messages
23,588
The edition I will be installing probably WILL have a browser pre-installed. Firefox.
 

LazyLion

King of de Jungle
Joined
Mar 17, 2005
Messages
103,160
I think the option to UNINSTALL Internet Explorer would have been fine. The european union is going way too far with this now.
 

DJNgoma

Expert Member
Joined
Jul 19, 2008
Messages
3,095
I think the option to UNINSTALL Internet Explorer would have been fine. The european union is going way too far with this now.
Or even an option to install/exclude option packages i.e. IE, WMP, Paint, Notepad and Wordpad and give a warning that they should blame the EU if they can't access basic files from the get go.
 

LazyLion

King of de Jungle
Joined
Mar 17, 2005
Messages
103,160
Broken Windows - are you happy now EU?

http://www.pcpro.co.uk/blogs/2009/06/12/broken-windows-are-you-happy-now-eu/

And so the EU’s pointless vendetta against Microsoft reaches its ridiculous conclusion: Microsoft will now ship Windows 7 in Europe without any web browser whatsoever. The pathetic gripes of a vastly inferior competitor - yes, I’m talking about you Opera - have concluded with the EU making life harder for consumers, PC manufacturers and, ironically, Opera itself.

PC manufacturers will of course bundle a browser with any new Windows 7 PC, and I wouldn’t mind betting that the only browser the vast majority will choose to bundle is Internet Explorer.

And what about people who buy Windows 7 off the shelf? A spokesperson for Microsoft Europe said the company will provide a free IE8 CD-ROM with every retail copy of Windows 7. So the company’s still effectively bundling IE8 - it’s just making consumers jump through a few more hoops to install the browser. Utterly, utterly pointless.

However, the real pain is reserved for people who are buying Windows 7 as an upgrade. Previously you’ve been able to upgrade in place, meaning that all your Vista applications (including the browser) and data would be carried over to the new operating system. Microsoft says this won’t now be possible. “The E [European] version will require a clean install,” the Microsoft spokesman told us. “You’ll need to rebuild the default settings after installation.”

Unbelievably, the EU has still taken umbrage at Microsoft’s decision to hobble its own operating system. “Microsoft has apparently decided to supply retail consumers with a version of Windows without a web browser at all,” the Eurocrats claim in a statement. “Rather than more choice, Microsoft seems to have chosen to provide less.”

Yes, Microsoft could have chosen to bundle every browser under the sun with Windows, but even Firefox executives admit there’s no “good way” of doing that. So what was Microsoft meant to do? Bundle IE8 again and wait for the inevitable multi-million fine? Or take the scalpel out?

The EU and Opera have got exactly what they asked for. Let’s see what good it does them.
stupid morons
 

PeterCH

Honorary Master
Joined
Aug 8, 2005
Messages
18,376
As an EU citizenship holder I support the EC on this. This is no different to having your PC maker put desktop links to browsers or preload them except - duh oh - these are FREE (unless the OEM wants to skin them).

Right now if you buy a PC and I'll give examples of my own Acer and Panasonic, both came with WinDVD, Roxio Creator Basic and an AV (30-90 day trial). To add a browser to a default disk image is not difficult, browsers are tiny - what Firefox is 7MB? Opera is even less? A link to IE is also sufficient (that browser is more than 7MB though) and Google Chrome and Safari are also available as are lesser known browsers.

These can be pre-installed or they can be optional installs OR optional download links with some form of downloader application downloading them - the way of the early MSN (when that was an ISP), America On Line or CompuServe.

People who moan about not having an internet browser to connect to the web with don't realise that OEMs will include these, and it's not as if you only need a browser to connect to the web - you need an internet account for instance unless you use some free Wifi and the hardware - a router for example which also needs to be configured and drivers/dialers installed too.
You also need a good firewall and an AV to be safe on the web as well.

Maybe I don't mind so much because I remember computers when there were no browsers - back in the days of Win 3.1x, NT 3.5 and 95, there were no browsers. You had to get one and you usually got it with the ISP CD
or you downloaded it elsewhere and brought it along on a floppy.
 

PeterCH

Honorary Master
Joined
Aug 8, 2005
Messages
18,376
I think the option to UNINSTALL Internet Explorer would have been fine. The european union is going way too far with this now.
Not enough. That requires you to still realise that IE is not the best and only browser out there, realise that you can do an UNINSTALL and bother to do it.

A good option would be to have MS or the OEM offer a shortlist of browsers to install OR download. Alternatively, the OEM or the store could offer their skinned browser or just offer a one browser. FireFox is a great alternative, free open source browser to the dinosaur that is IE.

This action was necessary to show MS that they can't get away with their nonsense. They were able to placate the US DOJ but the EC is a different kettle of fish.
 

diabolus

Executive Member
Joined
Feb 4, 2005
Messages
6,308

Yep, i feel exactly the same...stupid stupid stupid.


PeterCH said:
Maybe I don't mind so much because I remember computers when there were no browsers - back in the days of Win 3.1x, NT 3.5 and 95, there were no browsers. You had to get one and you usually got it with the ISP CD
or you downloaded it elsewhere and brought it along on a floppy.
Well i remember those days too, and i don't miss them. This is exactly why i feel overall it's a step backwards, literally back to Windows 3.1 .

OEMs/Retailers could have done what you described ALREADY, they could've bundled every browser in their images and smacked zillion links on your desktop or even pre-install it...THEY DIDN'T! Who's fault is that? Did Microsoft prevent it? If so, then they could have addressed it differently without inconveniencing most average users.

I don't really see how the end-user wins ? Will they REALLY now mysteriously get Opera on their desktops? Why?

So what's next? Removing Pocket IE from Windows Mobile?

[Why is Apple getting away with Safari?. Aren't they doing the exact same thing?

Another interesting article
http://itmanagement.earthweb.com/fe...-vs-the-EU-When-Antitrust-is-Anti-Competitive
Microsoft vs. the EU: When Antitrust is Anti-Competitive

In this obsolete antitrust war, Microsoft's argument has always been correct, and has in fact been proved in the market. The Microsoft position has been that Windows does not represent a proper monopoly because any user can re-format their PC and install a competitor -- or can simply choose an alternative system, such as an Apple system running Mac OS X. Further, Microsoft has argued, the ease of installing an alternative browser greatly diminishes the advantage of bundling.

Microsoft has claimed that as soon as someone offered a superior OS or a superior browser, Microsoft would lose market share. And this is exactly what has taken place.

And what about browsers? As this chart shows, people are choosing Firefox, Safari and Chrome over the bundled IE at ever-increasing rates. Current trends will make IE the number-two browser (after Firefox) in two or three years. More importantly, bundling has not enabled Microsoft to unfairly block competitors from eating its market share. Just like Microsoft said.

Clearly bundling gives Microsoft an advantage. But it's a comparable advantage to Apple's bundling of Safari on both Mac OS X and iPhone, and possibly even of Google app integration with Android.
 
Last edited:

PeterCH

Honorary Master
Joined
Aug 8, 2005
Messages
18,376
OEMs/Retailers could have done what you described ALREADY, they could've bundled every browser in their images and smacked zillion links on your desktop or even pre-install it...THEY DIDN'T! Who's fault is that? Did Microsoft prevent it? If so, then they could have addressed it differently without inconveniencing most average users.
Yes, MS prevented it. When you already have one browser, why install a second one?

MS sinned. It had to be punished. The EC couldn't let it get away without some punishment because without discipline irresponsible people (corporations) will continue to act irresponsibly and abuse their position. I honestly, and not speaking here as someone who's sick of MS BS over the decades, do not think this should be inconvenient, either a browser will already come pre-installed or it will be present on the hard drive and an icon on the desktop will allow you to install it - that will take an extra 2-3 clicks and possibly 1-2 minutes.
 

diabolus

Executive Member
Joined
Feb 4, 2005
Messages
6,308
Yes, MS prevented it. When you already have one browser, why install a second one?

MS sinned. It had to be punished. The EC couldn't let it get away without some punishment because without discipline irresponsible people (corporations) will continue to act irresponsibly and abuse their position. I honestly, and not speaking here as someone who's sick of MS BS over the decades, do not think this should be inconvenient, either a browser will already come pre-installed or it will be present on the hard drive and an icon on the desktop will allow you to install it - that will take an extra 2-3 clicks and possibly 1-2 minutes.
Yes, except it's still going to be IE, Microsoft is obviously going to provide it in the box or in a seperate box , nicely packaged for the OEM/Retailer. The OEM/Retailer isn't gonna do a thing about it [why would they?] and they're just going to pass it along to us. Will Opera add their little bundle in there? They could've done so already, why didn't they? Will Mozilla? I highly doubt it, it'll be part of an open source bundle which is again up to a OEM/Open Source Group to provide..if they don't...guess what , that IE disc will be there anyway...
 
Last edited:

PeterCH

Honorary Master
Joined
Aug 8, 2005
Messages
18,376
Yes, except it's still going to be IE, Microsoft is obviously going to provide it in the box or in a seperate box , nicely packaged for the OEM/Retailer. The OEM/Retailer isn't gonna do a thing about it [why would they?] and they're just going to pass it along to us. Will Opera add their little bundle in there? They could've done so already, why didn't they? Will Mozilla? I highly doubt it, it'll be part of an open source bundle which is again up to a OEM/Open Source Group to provide..if they don't...guess what , that IE disc will be there anyway...
Well this is MS response to the EC action. The EC wanted MS to offer a Wizard with multiple browser options, instead MS is weaseling out of this by getting rid of IE. You're right that some OEMs can be intimidated into bundling IE or Windows itself can have periodic popups offering to install IE or download it and install it.

Still EC is continuing with its action against MS. Good for them. It won't bring back Lotus, Borland, Netscape and other companies MS sunk, but hey it'll curb the number of IE users and that is a good thing.
 

killadoob

Honorary Master
Joined
Jan 30, 2004
Messages
46,575
Well whatever they do i would install because firefox and opera cannot make my router settings work, only IE works so without IE i cannot change my account ever 4 5 days when they get capped.
 

MightyMuffinMan

Expert Member
Joined
Dec 31, 2008
Messages
2,211
Bad Idea

Mayb I'm mistaken but there is a possible problem.

There are alot of applications (such as installers and the CHM help files) that require some of the core features in IE. Otherwise they just dont work.

Don't believe me, uninstall your IE, reboot and than try to install or uninstall a program made for windows.
 

DJNgoma

Expert Member
Joined
Jul 19, 2008
Messages
3,095
Mayb I'm mistaken but there is a possible problem.

There are alot of applications (such as installers and the CHM help files) that require some of the core features in IE. Otherwise they just dont work.

Don't believe me, uninstall your IE, reboot and than try to install or uninstall a program made for windows.
Na it will different I presume as each will now have include an additional pieces or I guess Microsoft might include the core but not the user interface.
 

bekdik

Honorary Master
Joined
Dec 5, 2004
Messages
12,860
Maybe I don't mind so much because I remember computers when there were no browsers - back in the days of Win 3.1x, NT 3.5 and 95, there were no browsers. You had to get one and you usually got it with the ISP CD or you downloaded it elsewhere and brought it along on a floppy.
Are you seriously suggesting that we revert to the days of building and restoring drivers yourself?

The single biggest reason that PC's are commodity items is because Microsoft has made them usable by non geeks. The general IT uninformed can power on a PC and make use of it.

Why should Opera be protected by making al the users suffer. Opera could strike a deal with PC suppliers to offer Opera as an optional install.
 

killadoob

Honorary Master
Joined
Jan 30, 2004
Messages
46,575
Peter one of the reason linux has taken so long to catch on is for a long time you needed to be a geek to use it much like earlier versions of windows, now linux is rather user friendly, what windows did as bek says i may it easy to use for everyone. We should be moving forward not backwards as you suggest.
 

chiskop

Executive Member
Joined
Mar 17, 2006
Messages
9,221
Opera could strike a deal with PC suppliers to offer Opera as an optional install.
This is basically what the EU wanted to do, bundle alternative browsers. It was MS's choice to remove the browser completely.
We should be moving forward not backwards as you suggest.
Moving forward would be including a selection of browsers - removing all browsers is a step backwards.

Don't blame the EU for MS's passive-aggression.
 
Top