Windows 8 applications - what's different?

elvis_presley said:
I'm pretty sure MS has made spcifiic provisions in the Win8 store to be GPL/FOSS friendly. Remember, MS is open source's friend nowdays. They're not the open source hating boogeyman they were 10 years ago.
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To make it GPS friendly the will need to open sideload.
 
AlphaJohn said:
To make it GPS friendly the will need to open sideload.
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No... to make it GPL friendly they must allow GPL code on it. Compare this with iOS/OSX where Apple's terms of service are incompatible with GPL and are a real obstacle.

Sideloading's another issue altogether. A rational argument can be made that prohibiting sideloading is a good thing, it protects the unwashed masses from their own stupidity. I want to sideload, but then again I'm not the average user. It's common knowledge by now that sideloading is possible when the PC is part of a domain, I don't know how much fiddling has been done to get it working with normal standalone win8 boxes.
 
I am a big fan of Windows but you can also call me old fashioned because I DON'T LIKE APPS ON A DESKTOP. Period. Read my lips. I tried it on the Mac OS and it was a big fail. You are forced to buy everything at exorbitant prices. I like the open system of Windows 7 and for that reason I will not upgrade to Windows 8. You can't combine a desktop OS with a mobile OS. How long will it take the developers to learn that it does not work!
 
cozinsky said:
I am a big fan of Windows but you can also call me old fashioned because I DON'T LIKE APPS ON A DESKTOP. Period. Read my lips. I tried it on the Mac OS and it was a big fail. You are forced to buy everything at exorbitant prices. I like the open system of Windows 7 and for that reason I will not upgrade to Windows 8. You can't combine a desktop OS with a mobile OS. How long will it take the developers to learn that it does not work!
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Chill out. Your desktop is still there with all the functionality of your Win7 desktop, except it's just faster and better now. If you're a desktop user, you can think of Windows 8 as a superior Windows 7, with some mobile crap it happens to have, that you'll pretty much never see.
 
so much misinformation out there!!!
you know you can just install applications as usual, ie download from website, double click setup.exe or *.msi????
 
elvis_presley said:
No... to make it GPL friendly they must allow GPL code on it. Compare this with iOS/OSX where Apple's terms of service are incompatible with GPL and are a real obstacle.

Sideloading's another issue altogether. A rational argument can be made that prohibiting sideloading is a good thing, it protects the unwashed masses from their own stupidity. I want to sideload, but then again I'm not the average user. It's common knowledge by now that sideloading is possible when the PC is part of a domain, I don't know how much fiddling has been done to get it working with normal standalone win8 boxes.
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I think you miss the whole GPL Open Source idea.

You thinking free source instead of Truely open source. Free source code = you can look but do not touch, Open source = Change/modify to your hearts content and run it. The Market as it stands now prevents you from running it, cause you know like you can not compile and install said code....

So yes Current Marketplace allow you to upload applications for free and give people the source code to said applications but they can not make it their own.

_kabal_ said:
so much misinformation out there!!!
you know you can just install applications as usual, ie download from website, double click setup.exe or *.msi????
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Not "Metro" apps

Desktop apps(Win32) yes but anything RT related nope sorry Windows marketplace only thank you. IE: there is no way in hell I hope you will be able to install anything from the web on your Windows 8 ARM tablet.
 
_kabal_ said:
so much misinformation out there!!!
you know you can just install applications as usual, ie download from website, double click setup.exe or *.msi????
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I'm seeing a lot of the Surface/Win8 reviews are generally positive - a big change from the doom-and-gloom FUD the sites were peddling up to a week ago. I guess the people have been forced to actually use the product, and have formed their own opinions.
 
AlphaJohn said:
I think you miss the whole GPL Open Source idea.

You thinking free source instead of Truely open source. Free source code = you can look but do not touch, Open source = Change/modify to your hearts content and run it. The Market as it stands now prevents you from running it, cause you know like you can not compile and install said code....

So yes Current Marketplace allow you to upload applications for free and give people the source code to said applications but they can not make it their own..
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Oh in THAT case, it really is more open source friendly than you think! Anyone can download the free dev tools and screw around and run on their RT tablet, etc. I've been doing that for a while since the betas. That won't change. The only restriction is if you want to PUBLISH it to a wider audience, you need to go through the app store. This doesn't break the open source model, and it's the preferred way of doing it on Android, for example - people would rather run apps that have gone through Google's verification procedures than a random downloaded xap. It might break some strange definition you've dreamed up in your head, but that's about it.
 
elvis_presley said:
Oh in THAT case, it really is more open source friendly than you think! Anyone can download the free dev tools and screw around and run on their RT tablet, etc. I've been doing that for a while since the betas. That won't change. The only restriction is if you want to PUBLISH it to a wider audience, you need to go through the app store. This doesn't break the open source model, and it's the preferred way of doing it on Android, for example - people would rather run apps that have gone through Google's verification procedures than a random downloaded xap. It might break some strange definition you've dreamed up in your head, but that's about it.
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Dude, seriously you thinking BSD or MIT or MS-PL. Trust me GPL and more to the point current GPLv3 software is not welcome.

Go read up a little, wait I will link something for you: http://electronicdesign.com/article/embedded/microsoft-marketplace-forbids-gpl-3-software

To distribute an application through the Microsoft Marketplace requires agreement with the terms of the Microsoft Application Provider Agreement found on the the Microsoft Developer Network. One of those terms, Article 5, forbids the distribution of an application that would be covered under GNU.org's and the Free Software Foundation's GPL 3 license. GPL 3 is termed an 'Excluded License' by Microsoft. This means an application cannot use any GPL 3-based libraries because an application that did would be covered by GPL 3 as well. Microsoft Marketplace addresses Windows, Windows Phone and XBox platforms.

Microsoft's restrictions are specfic to GPL 3 though. At this point it does not exclude open source licenses such as BSD, LGPL or even GNU's GPL 2 but there seems to be no reason those could not be added to the list of 'Excluded Licenses.'

The likely reason that Microsoft specifically excluded GPL 3 is that GPL 3 is more restrictive in its terms such as the anti-tivoization clauses. GPL 3 is built on GPL 2 that requires access to the source code and the ability to redistribute and reuse that code. Wikipedia's GPL coverage goes into more detail on the subject.

The Marketplace license only address distribution of applications. A different license could cover the target platforms and each does have a license from Microsoft. At this point installing applications on a Windows Phone without going through the Marketplace will be beyond the average consumer. Windows and the XBox support other media that has been the typical method of installing applications. At this point I think you can still use GPL 3 applications on all the platforms.

Still, it is disconcerting to me, and probably most developers, that we now have to be concerned about what tools and platforms we utilize to create and distribute applications. Fear, uncertianty and doubt (FUD) is no fun and bad commercially in the long run.

This issue will continue to be of importance and products like Black Duck Software's ProtexIP (see Is it GPL if it quacks like a Duck?) already address the situation at least from the perspective of identifying license dependencies. These tools would allow a developer to determine if their application could be covered under GPL 2.

Part of the issue is how GPL and other open source licenses affect derivative works. I am not a lawyer, but, in general, if you start with a GPL 2 library or source code then the resulting work will be covered under GPL 2. It is possible to release that work under GPL 3 but that covers only the derivative work, not anything it was based on. That is still covered by GPL 2.

It is also possible to distribute a derivative work using different licenses as long as all the underlying license requirements are met. In the example, the derivative work could be distributed using GPL 2 and GPL 3 but it could not be distributed using a BSD license.

What is annoying about Microsoft's restrictions is that commercial software can be covered under GPL 3. Open source does not mean vendors cannot charge for a product. It does mean that there are fewer restrictions on its use and that the source code is available.

The big issue for some developers will be whether it is possible to even ship a product using Microsoft Marketplace. As noted, once you start with GPL 3 then your derivative work must be covered under GPL 3. There are many great applications that will be available under other platforms like Android that may never see the light of day on a Microsoft platform because of these new licensing terms.
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Next you gonna tell me its GPL's fault not the marketplace. To that I simply ask what changed GPLv3 or windows new policy preventing applications that use to work perfectly

Just for information, under this license we talking apps like Blender, GIMP, VLC, Open Office and so on.
 
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AlphaJohn said:
Dude, seriously you thinking BSD or MIT or MS-PL. Trust me GPL and more to the point current GPLv3 software is not welcome.Go read up a little, wait I will link something for you: http://electronicdesign.com/article/embedded/microsoft-marketplace-forbids-gpl-3-software


Next you gonna tell me its GPL's fault not the marketplace. To that I simply ask what changed GPLv3 or windows new policy preventing applications that use to work perfectly
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That's old - Feb'11 - they updated the Developer Agreement to be more GPL friendly. Here's one from Dec'11.
http://news.slashdot.org/story/11/12/12/1841259/windows-8-store-will-allow-open-source-apps .. and that's on slashdot! Original article: http://www.extremetech.com/computin...ill-allow-open-source-apps-unlike-ios-and-mac

Looks like they took out the specific GPLv3 ban, and just showered love down on open source.
 
elvis_presley said:
That's old - Feb'11 - they updated the Developer Agreement to be more GPL friendly. Here's one from Dec'11.
http://news.slashdot.org/story/11/12/12/1841259/windows-8-store-will-allow-open-source-apps .. and that's on slashdot! Original article: http://www.extremetech.com/computin...ill-allow-open-source-apps-unlike-ios-and-mac

Looks like they took out the specific GPLv3 ban, and just showered love down on open source.
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Yeah just found another update http://msdn.microsoft.com/en-us/library/windows/apps/hh694058

Section 3 G
License to Customer for Windows Store apps. You, not Microsoft, will license the right to install and use each app to customers. You may provide a license agreement to the customer for your app. That license agreement or other terms that govern a customer’s use of your app (including any privacy policy), or a link to them, must be delivered to Microsoft for publication via the product description materials you provide to Microsoft. If you do not provide such materials, then the Standard Application License Terms, attached as Exhibit A, will apply between you and customers of your app. If you provide your own license agreement, your license must, at a minimum, (a) permit the customer to download and run the app on up to five Windows 8 enabled devices that are associated with that customer’s Microsoft account, without payment of any additional fees to you (from either Microsoft or customer), (b) include "disclaimer of warranty" and "limitation on and exclusion of remedies and damages" sections that are at least as protective as Exhibit A and (c) disclaim any support services from Microsoft and the customer’s device manufacturer and network operator (if applicable). Your license terms must also not conflict with the Standard Application License Terms, in any way, except if you include FOSS, your license terms may conflict with the limitations set forth in Section 3 of those Terms, but only to the extent required by the FOSS that you use. "FOSS" means any software licensed under an Open Source Initiative Approved License.
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My bad... retracting my whole debate :)

Move along nothing to see :) Apology accepted ?
 
elvis_presley said:
Haha no problem, it's the internet's fault for having such a long memory.

Edit: in a twist to this, it appears GPLv3 might restrict uploading to MS Marketplace, even though MS Marketplace allows it to be uploaded. Probably just an unintended consequence.
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Anyway, I am sure a Jailbreak will sort this part out soon enough....
 
LiquidCow said:
Still not going to buy Windows 8. Call me backward and old fashioned, but this silly new UI is not the way forward for PCs. I agree with some of the core principles that MS was trying to achieve with this, but it was just implemented horribly.
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Aww man... wanted to do this before I scrolled down and saw the others do it...


You're backward and old fashioned.
 
AlphaJohn said:
Not "Metro" apps

Desktop apps(Win32) yes but anything RT related nope sorry Windows marketplace only thank you. IE: there is no way in hell I hope you will be able to install anything from the web on your Windows 8 ARM tablet.
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yes, of course, I was talking specifically win32, I should have been clearer.
except the way people are going on, they are under the impression that you have to download/install firefox, some new game,etc from the market place, which is just not true. win32 is not close to dying, and EVERYTHING most desktop people use or want to use will be available as "standard" win32
 
elvis_presley said:
Chill out. Your desktop is still there with all the functionality of your Win7 desktop, except it's just faster and better now. If you're a desktop user, you can think of Windows 8 as a superior Windows 7, with some mobile crap it happens to have, that you'll pretty much never see.
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Ok you convinced me. I will give it a try. Maybe you are right.
 
Jan said:
I guess it depends on your perspective. That's useful for custom developments where a handful of customers (or one customer) cover(s) your costs. If you're trying to sell an app to the public then you have to go through MS as, from what I've read, sideloading isn't an easy process. For one, you need a sideloading product key: http://social.technet.microsoft.com...l/thread/3092a681-b9cc-473b-83aa-b492ea7f3946




I don't understand how this relates to the question of distribution? The evangelist in Track 1 said your app would fail certification if you did this (i.e. it won't make it into the Windows Store).

It is something cool you can do with a business application if you want it to use WinRT on the front-end, though.
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Yeah, it was probably not in context with the store.

The part that you need a license key for side-loading is when you have a small business that doesn't use a domain.

The part that you need a Certificate only works if your computer is part of a domain, the Certificate must be Trusted on the computers when you sign your app with it. (You also need to change a setting on the computers "Allow Trusted Applications to be installed on this computer", this may or may not be a policy of your domain admin.)

Our app will be deployed on computers in an ERP system(Enterprise domain). It will be located on a kiosk type computer where they check stock in a warehouse to picking slips printed, it will have a scanner linked to it where they scan barcodes and book the stock for dispatch.

The warehouse manager will be able to see in real time picking slip progress and with simple gestures and swipe get more information on slips and reorder them with drag and drop.

This is really off-topic and I don't apologize for that :)
 
Very negative view / review of Win8 in general I thought I'd post.
Have either read or heard on TV quite a number of people unimpressed by it overseas, either in the US or UK.
I won't be rushing into upgrading a PC & laptop from Win7 to 8, but will wait a few weeks or months & read lots more reviews, threads & posts, especially on this forum!

http://money.cnn.com/2012/10/25/technology/microsoft-windows-8-gamble/

Under the section "Join the Conversation".

RGG, Today 09:22 PM
I am using windows 8 now, as a developer, we get the release 2.5 months before - it's the real McCoy.

If Microsoft is banking all they can on this baby, they should have got an abortion in the first trimester. Yes, I can see what they want to do, but frankly I think they pooched on this one.

There are key components that do not work well or at all. The boot up is blindingly faster than I have ever seen for ANY windows version, but I have to say that the fast boot up only gets you to a windows that is, well, not really working too well...

1. The security layers we felt / dealt with in Vista - are back. It was alleviated in windows 7, where the user could "down" the UAC and use the computer normally without being prompted to do anything other than click desktop and start menu icons. It was horrible. I am surprised that Windows Vista / 8 does not detect you getting up from your seat to go to the bathroom and ask you to elevate your security level - granting you permission to do that...

The interface in some areas, especially networking - is so vista, it's sick, Vista is back - without the start menu. File copying is so slow across a gigabit network, if I attempted to copy 250GB across a wired local network I am positive Windows 9 release candidate would be out by the time it was done.

2. Do you remember the days, when an error, or blue screen of death would present itself? Yes, those strange 0x873a333 numbers. Well, with windows 8 they are gone. As a matter of fact, in some cases on windows 8, if you get an error, you dont have a blue screen of death or strange group of numbers indicating some sort of cryptic error has happened. You just end up with a blank screen, just sitting there, not knowing what to click, what to close. It's just a blank screen - hmmm. Why...

3. to make you feel better about errors (#2 above), the help system is so hidden, and to top it off, the so-called intuitiveness of windows 8 expects you to have programmed windows 8 itself - not needing any instructions. Microsoft expects you to just "know" how to use it. So much, that they give you a 25 second or so cute little video never to be seen again after the first login.. Microsoft thinks they are so great - that it's customers will just "know" how to use it.

So, having said that, I will share with you what took me 3 installs to figure out.

a. There is no real help system

b. There are two types of users you can be within windows. One of those types virtually disables you from having "real" access to your own PC, that's not including the 5 layer thick security system within windows (the one we had in vista). The other, gives you rights to your PC, practically full, but out of the box, windows 8 wants you to register the other way, the cloud-based, Microsoft store way, prepping you to subscribe your way through your own PC.

c. The 1/2 baked, no start menu, New Metro (not called that anymore), split personality between a hard to reach desktop, and difficult to navigate start screen (the metro thingy) to get to your apps not listed in the main metro screen. Yes, the operating system that does not have any tutorial setup so you can access things like the control panel, notepad, word pad, and yes, the calculator. Yes, they are there, but you will have to have a college degree to find out how to get to those things.

d. Oh, the control panel - which one I might ask, the new charm / metro driven settings panel on the right, or the control panel that you are use to.

I need not go on any more...

I can see the genius behind windows 8 which is about as comical as "Pay No Attention To The Ballmer Behind The "Blue" Screen..."

Finally, the issues I note above, are how they released the retail version of windows 8 a couple of months ago, to me, and to of course, the same folk who are putting it in your new tablets and PCs you will be buying this xmas

Let's just put it this way, two final things.

To give windows 8 a (fair) break, I can do that. I can fairly say that there are some neat features of windows 8. But they are so obscured from our view you'd probably not get to see them.

I think Microsoft confused the word "cloud" with fog. Oh, I'm sorry, they didn't confuse it, that's right it was on purpose - otherwise they would have been sued by apple over the use of it...

==============================================

Microsoft has a mess on their hands. I have been using, configuring, and developing on top of Microsoft products and platforms for 16+ years and I am truly infuriated by the direction they are going with all this. I can see the death of Microsoft clearly if they do not take a drastic turn by 11:45 PM tonight - their plane is crashing with this OS, it's clear....

Ok, I lied, one last word. I think Microsoft invented windows 8 so we would not feel so bad about purchasing windows Vista - as right now that would be a better choice, at least that windows has a start menu...
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I O U said:
Very negative view / review of Win8 in general I thought I'd post.
Have either read or heard on TV quite a number of people unimpressed by it overseas, either in the US or UK.
I won't be rushing into upgrading a PC & laptop from Win7 to 8, but will wait a few weeks or months & read lots more reviews, threads & posts, especially on this forum!

http://money.cnn.com/2012/10/25/technology/microsoft-windows-8-gamble/

Under the section "Join the Conversation".
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Very bad review. UAC is defo not worse then in Win7 and does he care about security? UAC DOES have a purpose.

Blaming slow network copying on Windows 8. Hahaha! Yeah right.

I never had a blue sceen in Windows 8 yet. Is his PC even Windows 8 capable?

Windows 8 does have a help system. Windows in general have a very very good help system.

Screw the start menu. It is soooo old!

So there are two control panels. Who gives a rats ass.

/off topic. Do not bother with reviews. They are just personal opinions. I don't give a rats ass about someones personal opinions. Keep it to yourself.
 
arneduppi said:
Very bad review. UAC is defo not worse then in Win7 and does he care about security? UAC DOES have a purpose.

Blaming slow network copying on Windows 8. Hahaha! Yeah right.

I never had a blue sceen in Windows 8 yet. Is his PC even Windows 8 capable?

Windows 8 does have a help system. Windows in general have a very very good help system.

Screw the start menu. It is soooo old!

So there are two control panels. Who gives a rats ass.

/off topic. Do not bother with reviews. They are just personal opinions. I don't give a rats ass about someones personal opinions. Keep it to yourself.
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But then i dont care about yours either ? :D

Already purchased start8 from stardock.
 
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