Xbox One in trouble.

[saffakanera]

http://mygaming.co.za/forum/showthread.php/31616-Xbox-One-is-in-trouble

Great summary : http://www.neogaf.com/forum/showpost.php?p=61470097&postcount=2641

Sauce: http://www.neogaf.com/forum/showthread.php?t=576869

Some info:

RAM bandwidth plays a massive part in graphical quality. The PS3's ram can supply around 2GB of data to the GPU per frame in a 60fps game, whilst the Xbone's less than 1GB when there is no post processing done.

The ESRAM will help when it comes to adding post processing effects after the first render pass on the frame is completed by the GPU etc but it won't really help by getting more data to the GPU when the raw frame is actually being put together, apart from maybe the odd tweak here and there. Post processing as a second render pass on the frame can take a lot of frame time as it is GPU and bandwidth heavy so the ESRAM will definitely help there, but again the GPU is a big part of the equation in this, and its not like the PS4 will be bandwidth starved in this area either and it has a faster GPU to process the changes.

Its becoming a doubt as to whether the 360's GPU could actually process 1GB of data per frame anyway as its looking to become the bottleneck itself looking at the specs of it.

Games on the PC have regularly been hitting 2GB of unique data per frame at 1080p recently so you can see the logic behind the PS4's design, and the non logic behind the Xbox ones.

This is in basic terms of course as every engine is different in its hardware requirements.

 

[Polymathic]

I wonder if the XBox one going to support readyboost

 

[Ancalagon]

Its too early to tell how much of that article is accurate, but yeah, a lot of it is possible. I'm very interested to see what happens at the end of the year.

I find it amazing/funny that Sony learned their lesson from the PS4, and Microsoft is making Sony's mistakes. The PS3's Cell CPU was too hard to program for, and made most multiplatform titles look better on the Xbox. So now they have fixed that, their console is nice and easy to program for, and even better, it has this 8GB of unified GDDR5. Compare that to the Xbox, which only has 5GB of much slower DDR3 (after 3GB is reserved for the OS), and developers will need to learn how to use this 32mb buffer to really get the best out of it.

The problem is that, the Kinect is a large part of their strategy, and to fit that into the budget, they needed to cut costs, hence the DDR3 instead of GDDR5.

Myself, I'm not really seeing enough of a benefit from Kinect. Yes, I can turn the console on by saying Xbox On. I dont watch TV anyway, so that is no use to me, and even if I did watch TV, the convenience of swiping through channels, or whatever, is not enough to justify the much slower performance.

It sounds like Microsoft is suffering from arrogance though. hence Windows 8 being a disaster, and hence the Xbox One being not well received. I wonder what will be shown at E3 - Microsoft knows that Sony is ahead of them right now, and the only way they can back in the game is by showing actual GAMES.

 

[saffakanera]

7850 specs (PS4 in brackets)
1.78 TFLOPS (1.84 TFLOPS)
153.6GB/s memory bandwidth (176 GB/s)
16 CUs (18 CUs)
32 ROPS (32 ROPS)

7770 specs (Xbone in brackets)
1.28 TFLOPS (1.2 TFLOPS)
72GB/s memory bandwidth (68 GB/s)
10 CUs (12 CUs)
16 ROPS (16 ROPS)

The point is, when these two AMD cards are hooked up to PCs with otherwise identical specs, the 7850 gives 2 times the performance over the 7770, even though it only has 1½ times the CUs.

If MS downgrade the Xbone further, the performance difference between it and the PS4 will be more than double.

 

[Pixelatedzee]

I don't think it's too early, majority of that info was given at the Xbone reveal. If Microsoft had just focused on core gaming and not this central media hub that only really benefits Americans, things would be less complicated. An I the only one that hates the idea of an always on console especially with the kinetic connected.

 

[Way69]

You cant compare graphics cards only as the xbox has a number of cpu\ memory features which could be further utilized to speed things up.

It all depends on how easy MS makes it for developers to write code which fully utilizes the hardware. Considering that MS is a software company, I think its safe to say that theyre going to do a better job that Sony did with the ps3...

Sony as a company has had so many misses in the last couple of years. I'd rather put my money on Microsoft.

 

[Nether]

MS wants to use cloud servers to offload specific graphics rendering, shadows, opencl computes etc.

Technically they say the xbox won't require so much power because their cloud servers will also handle extra processing required, no surprise there why they insist on always on internet.

I think its a farce and even they somehow managed to process shaders on a cloud server and send it back, the latency would be so bad.....I can't really describe what it would look like for us here in SA.

 

[Nether]

You cant compare graphics cards only as the xbox has a number of cpu\ memory features which could be further utilized to speed things up.

It all depends on how easy MS makes it for developers to write code which fully utilizes the hardware. Considering that MS is a software company, I think its safe to say that theyre going to do a better job that Sony did with the ps3...

Sony as a company has had so many misses in the last couple of years. I'd rather put my money on Microsoft.

Oh yeah, just like win8 is a resounding success.

And developers are praising the PS4 btw.

And your wrong about Sony, they have had a longer time at developing api's for consoles then MS.

Sony does have a few misses with products over the years, but they seem to be learning better then MS this time around.

 

[Ancalagon]

I think they can improve the marketing message later, now that they know how much flak they got for not focusing on games. So I dont think its over. They will probably not beat Sony, but they might beat Nintendo.

I dont care about Kinect - I really dont care if MS wants to snoop on me. However, the online only stuff, and not being able to resell games, is a big deal to me. I hate DRM, and I dont want DRM on my console. If Sony offers a better, less restrictive DRM solution, they will get my money.

If MS plays hardball with this, they could lose big time.

 

[ToxicBunny]

How exactly can a console be in trouble before anyone has actually seen any content on the console?

 

[Nether]

I think they can improve the marketing message later, now that they know how much flak they got for not focusing on games. So I dont think its over. They will probably not beat Sony, but they might beat Nintendo.

I dont care about Kinect - I really dont care if MS wants to snoop on me. However, the online only stuff, and not being able to resell games, is a big deal to me. I hate DRM, and I dont want DRM on my console. If Sony offers a better, less restrictive DRM solution, they will get my money.

If MS plays hardball with this, they could lose big time.

I think used games is bad for the industry.

If you're using steam for any reason (or origin) then you can't really complain about used games at all.

I don't like publishers greed on the gaming industry and the profits they try to squeezes out of the gaming community, but second hand gaming isn't how it is suppose to work.

If you are wondering why I have this opinion check out Total Halibuts video on second hand gaming, and his thoughts on this, I generally agree with what he says.

Blizzard is an excellent example of how their products don't get influenced by second hand games.

If you want to sell your games you have to sell your entire account, as it should be.

 

[Ancalagon]

You cant compare graphics cards only as the xbox has a number of cpu\ memory features which could be further utilized to speed things up.

It all depends on how easy MS makes it for developers to write code which fully utilizes the hardware. Considering that MS is a software company, I think its safe to say that theyre going to do a better job that Sony did with the ps3...

Sony as a company has had so many misses in the last couple of years. I'd rather put my money on Microsoft.

I dont know, nothing I've seen about the Xbox inspires confidence. Sony learned their lessons from the PS3, I dont think MS learned anything from either the Xbox, PS3, or Win8.

MS wants to use cloud servers to offload specific graphics rendering, shadows, opencl computes etc.

Technically they say the xbox won't require so much power because their cloud servers will also handle extra processing required, no surprise there why they insist on always on internet.

I think its a farce and even they somehow managed to process shaders on a cloud server and send it back, the latency would be so bad.....I can't really describe what it would look like for us here in SA.

That worked so well for SimCity - eventually gamers proved that no processing was done on the cloud, and that everything could run locally, so it was a complete lie. Even if its true, I dont want processing on the cloud! I dont want to have to be online to play a single player game.

 

[Wyzak]

MS wants to use cloud servers to offload specific graphics rendering, shadows, opencl computes etc.

I can't imagine that happening. The frame will have to be calculated several seconds in the future, and take latency and direction into account. If you don't move in their expected direction for example the game will consume lots of bandwidth unnecessarily.

 

[Wyzak]

How exactly can a console be in trouble before anyone has actually seen any content on the console?

Quite easily. We know the e-toll system is fundamentally flawed and corrupt and it hasn't started operating yet...

 

[Nether]

How exactly can a console be in trouble before anyone has actually seen any content on the console?

Maybe if MS learned to better communicate people would be mouthing off like this (me included). Their silence on all the things that 'might' give them bad publishing just enforces bad reputation, and people start to suspect the worst.

 

[AlmightyBender]

I think used games is bad for the industry.

If you're using steam for any reason (or origin) then you can't really complain about used games at all.

I don't like publishers greed on the gaming industry and the profits they try to squeezes out of the gaming community, but second hand gaming isn't how it is suppose to work.

If you are wondering why I have this opinion check out Total Halibuts video on second hand gaming, and his thoughts on this, I generally agree with what he says.

Blizzard is an excellent example of how their products don't get influenced by second hand games.

If you want to sell your games you have to sell your entire account, as it should be.

What about games that in no way need an account of any type? Like Mortal Combat or a racing game? IMO only games with a community online economy need an account. I don't want to have accounts in the first place.

 

[Ancalagon]

I think used games is bad for the industry.

If you're using steam for any reason (or origin) then you can't really complain about used games at all.

I don't like publishers greed on the gaming industry and the profits they try to squeezes out of the gaming community, but second hand gaming isn't how it is suppose to work.

If you are wondering why I have this opinion check out Total Halibuts video on second hand gaming, and his thoughts on this, I generally agree with what he says.

Blizzard is an excellent example of how their products don't get influenced by second hand games.

If you want to sell your games you have to sell your entire account, as it should be.

I dont agree at all. Its not bad for the industry - the money that people get from reselling games is generally invested into new games. People who cant resell their games, cant buy as many games.

And why is it their right to restrict what I do with a game? Does Toyota care if I resell my car - no they dont. Does the builder care if I sell my house? No he doesnt.

I can sell music albums, dvds, books, everything. Its only technology that has enabled corporations to restrict used game sales.

 

[Way69]

Oh yeah, just like win8 is a resounding success.

And developers are praising the PS4 btw.

And your wrong about Sony, they have had a longer time at developing api's for consoles then MS.

Sony does have a few misses with products over the years, but they seem to be learning better then MS this time around.

Really, developers are raving about a console that has not been released????

I'm wrong about Sony, how then on their second try at a console did MS manage to ship more units?

Go look at Microsofts share price, I dont think they're doing badly at all...

Lately the only thing Sony does well is hold off negotiations with Apple on streaming music.

It really is early days and so far Sony has given even less information about their console that MS has. People here are saying that MS doesnt learn from mistakes which is a complete farce considering windows 7 and the upcoming windows 8.1.

 

[Ancalagon]

Really, developers are raving about a console that has not been released????

I'm wrong about Sony, how then on their second try at a console did MS manage to ship more units?

Go look at Microsofts share price, I dont think they're doing badly at all...

Lately the only thing Sony does well is hold off negotiations with Apple on streaming music.

It really is early days and so far Sony has given even less information about their console that MS has. People here are saying that MS doesnt learn from mistakes which is a complete farce considering windows 7 and the upcoming windows 8.1.

how about this?
http://forums.anandtech.com/showthread.php?t=2320929

And why did Windows 8 happen in the first place?

 

[Way69]

how about this?
http://forums.anandtech.com/showthread.php?t=2320929

And why did Windows 8 happen in the first place?

Do you even use windows 8? MS stock is doing so well right now that Mr Gates is once again the richest dude in the world. comparing the two companies is like comparing a pea to an orange.

I get why them focusing on the media aspect would alienate hardcore gamers but maybe you should be playing pc games instead anyways?

As far as I'm concerned having an all encompassing media device is a very smart move on their part.