Xbox One in trouble.

Way69 said:
which is why MS stock right now is the highest its been in 10 years. As Steve Jobs said "Customers don't know what they want".
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Share prices have nothing to do with product adequacy and consumer concerns... Look at Apple. Biggest profit margins in history, yet their stock tumbled not too long ago.
 
Way69 said:
I've read plenty of arguments online where people are pleading for them not to bring the start menu back. The strategy will make more sense when more hardware based on haswell comes out and we have more form factors similar to the surface.

I actually think the case for a unified OS is quite compelling, its a long term plan which might offend people like you over the short term.
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I think h'e talking about the start menu that will just link you back to the tiles screen. (This is the plan with 8.1)
You're not getting the old style start menu back, its just a link to the tiles display.

I believe its good for them to do this, its that middle ground I was talking about, keep the tiles, just put a link to it in the desktop.

I know, this isn't a problem for me and you :) but its for those people that don't like using shortcut keys (or keys for that matter) to navigate an UI.
 
"The current Xbox strategy just seems to be to just toss a huge net out there and try to make as much money as possible. Make a machine that has a very broad market appeal. Get those grannies waving around in front of Kinect 2.0, turn it into dad's new sports box, and for little Jimmy this thing still does Call of Duty. Providing you with an improved core gaming experience comes after all of that.

Their very strong focus on TV and sports during the console reveal makes that message very apparent.

They really have to blow the doors off E3 to get themselves in a different light. Or do they? I mean, it's gross to us, the enthusiasts. At the end of the day it could still a huge success. As much as this machine doesn't seem like it's for me, I'm certainly not doubting it's ability to be a main stream success, sort of in the same way the Wii was."

Well, guy has a point, but most of the things primary functions will be region locked.
 
MS is chasing after the iOS/Android market while neglecting their existing customers. They'll end up with neither type of customer.

Xbox One isn't a real cable box or a DVR. Smart TV + Cable box w/ built in DVR has every media feature as Xbox One, but better and with less DRM.

Once smart TVs or cable box DVRs can start playing iOS/Android level games, it's going to be even worse for Xbox One and home consoles in general. It will only get worse as hardware improves.

All Xbox One offers is an HDMI overlay which failed with webtv, googletv, and will fail here as well.

Maybe they have the advantage of a 'good enough' games console and kinect, but core gamers won't go for it.
 
Nether said:
Because everyone makes mistakes.

And this isn't Sony's second try at a console btw, if you've forgotten Playstation 3. The PS1 and PS2 console where a resounding success, and they did it without internet most of the time, are you denying that Sony was ever successful?

Listen, I'm not saying Sony IS going to be better, this will all be made clear once these consoles go on sale. I just think they are smart enough to know what the gaming community wants, and what their developer base wants, finding the middle ground here would make most of everyone happy, just because you only want the best for yourself without considering all the merits of the matter doesn't make it right.

To you reference about Microsofts share price, I don;t think it was only influenced by the Xbox 360, they are only now breaking even with it, there are analysts who believe MS should sell of their entertainment division (xbox).

Link : http://www.wpcentral.com/microsoft-restructure-will-focus-devices-services
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My issue with this thread is that there are so many what-ifs in terms of both consoles. Obviously both companies are keeping a lot under wraps until release.

People are speculating based on what has been released to the public so far and you cant really count you chickens before they have hatched.

Currently I own an xbox 360 but I have no loyalty either way, should sony release a better product then a ps4 will be my next purchase. There is just too much fanboyism going on in this thread based on the limited information that is currently available.

If you consider how meager the xbox 360 looked compared to the ps3 specs wise back in the day, I dont think think people thought that things wouldve turned out the way that they did...
 
Way69 said:
My issue with this thread is that there are so many what-ifs in terms of both consoles. Obviously both companies are keeping a lot under wraps until release.

People are speculating based on what has been released to the public so far and you cant really count you chickens before they have hatched.

Currently I own an xbox 360 but I have no loyalty either way, should sony release a better product then a ps4 will be my next purchase. There is just too much fanboyism going on in this thread based on the limited information that is currently available.

If you consider how meager the xbox 360 looked compared to the ps3 specs wise back in the day, I dont think think people thought that things wouldve turned out the way that they did...
Click to expand...

None of this info is public, it's from Crazy Butt On a Train, 10 year proved Neogaf insider who dropped the info on the 360, guy is very legit, they crossed referenced the information with 6 other sources, you can bank on this.
 
saffakanera said:
MS is chasing after the iOS/Android market while neglecting their existing customers. They'll end up with neither type of customer.

Xbox One isn't a real cable box or a DVR. Smart TV + Cable box w/ built in DVR has every media feature as Xbox One, but better and with less DRM.

Once smart TVs or cable box DVRs can start playing iOS/Android level games, it's going to be even worse for Xbox One and home consoles in general. It will only get worse as hardware improves.

All Xbox One offers is an HDMI overlay which failed with webtv, googletv, and will fail here as well.

Maybe they have the advantage of a 'good enough' games console and kinect, but core gamers won't go for it.
Click to expand...

So you dont think that windows media center addition was a good start? Windows pc's have made great media centers for the enthusiast. Honestly, unless apple releases a tv I cant see smart tv's making a massive impact, companies like samsung make great hardware but cr@p software...
 
saffakanera said:
None of this info is public, it's from Crazy Butt On a Train, 10 year proved Neogaf insider who dropped the info on the 360, guy is very legit, they crossed referenced the information with 6 other sources, you can bank on this.
Click to expand...

I dont bank on rumors.
 
Ancalagon said:
And I think you miss the crucial point - just because something is expensive, does not give you the right to restrict a consumer's rights. To develop a new line of cars costs a lot more than making a game, but I dont see BMW asking for new laws to make sure they get their money back. They take a risk - it is what doing business is about. Game publishers are like the music industry - they fought the change for ages, and they are still fighting it - they want to dictate to the market instead of reacting to changes in the market. Sorry guys, I dont get why you should be treated differently to any other industry.
Click to expand...

Well said!
 
Way69 said:
So you dont think that windows media center addition was a good start? Windows pc's have made great media centers for the enthusiast. Honestly, unless apple releases a tv I cant see smart tv's making a massive impact, companies like samsung make great hardware but cr@p software...
Click to expand...

I think the idea is a good one, albeit taken out of Sony's book. The market is ready for an all-in-one media solution. MS clearly had to make certain compromises in order to take the Xbox from a pure gaming machine to a media centre. What is still unknown at this point, is whether Sony have completely ditched that idea, or if they have improved upon it.
 
Way69 said:
I've read plenty of arguments online where people are pleading for them not to bring the start menu back. The strategy will make more sense when more hardware based on haswell comes out and we have more form factors similar to the surface.

I actually think the case for a unified OS is quite compelling, its a long term plan which might offend people like you over the short term.
Click to expand...

Yes yes Haswell will be amazeballs etc but what exactly has that got to do with my desktop PC? The one which has a verticle screen and which I use a mouse to interact with? For that application where I spend 90% of my time interacting with Windows 8 I want to be able to go straight to desktop mode, have tiles as widgets on desktop and then be able to access my apps/programs without going to a completely separate screen. The best part of the start menu is that it is conistent in a WINDOWED environment i.e. doesn't take up the whole effing screen. Full screen apps are horrendous for how I use my PC but just fine for a tablet. Really don't see the point of having all or nothing. Don't see how allowing me to use the desktop in the way I want makes the OS un-unified?
 
So if the system isn't going to be a massive contender with the PS4 in terms of game performance, and focus on being a TV feature system, won't that mean that locked regions like SA will be severely left behind?
 
AlmightyBender said:
Yes yes Haswell will be amazeballs etc but what exactly has that got to do with my desktop PC? The one which has a verticle screen and which I use a mouse to interact with? For that application where I spend 90% of my time interacting with Windows 8 I want to be able to go straight to desktop mode, have tiles as widgets on desktop and then be able to access my apps/programs without going to a completely separate screen. The best part of the start menu is that it is conistent in a WINDOWED environment i.e. doesn't take up the whole effing screen. Full screen apps are horrendous for how I use my PC but just fine for a tablet. Really don't see the point of having all or nothing. Don't see how allowing me to use the desktop in the way I want makes the OS un-unified?
Click to expand...

Can you and Way69 please make your own thread? You guys are derailing like mad here.
 
AlmightyBender said:
Yes yes Haswell will be amazeballs etc but what exactly has that got to do with my desktop PC? The one which has a verticle screen and which I use a mouse to interact with? For that application where I spend 90% of my time interacting with Windows 8 I want to be able to go straight to desktop mode, have tiles as widgets on desktop and then be able to access my apps/programs without going to a completely separate screen. The best part of the start menu is that it is conistent in a WINDOWED environment i.e. doesn't take up the whole effing screen. Full screen apps are horrendous for how I use my PC but just fine for a tablet. Really don't see the point of having all or nothing. Don't see how allowing me to use the desktop in the way I want makes the OS un-unified?
Click to expand...

sorry, i havent used a desktop since the 90's so cant relate ;-)
 
saffakanera said:
Can you and Way69 please make your own thread? You guys are derailing like mad here.
Click to expand...

You're right :o Way69 you can respond to me via PM if you want.

Back on point I don't think the MS share price has much to do with XBox. Most US companies are hitting high share prices. It's an economic thing. I think that Xbox One has lost this race already due to a poorly implemented reveal and marketing of the features. It is the but of all jokes at the moment and thing is, if that is the case then I as a consumer am going to avoid it, almost regardless of how well it plays games.
 
Some good technical discussion happening, source: http://www.neogaf.com/forum/showpost.php?p=61585637&postcount=3776


The differences in memory bandwidth and ROPs also match up closely to the PS4 and Xbone bandwidth differences. So yeah, while not perfect, it is the nearest anyone has to real world comparisons.

7850 specs (PS4 in brackets)
1.78 TFLOPS (1.84 TFLOPS)
153.6GB/s memory bandwidth (176 GB/s)
16 CUs (18 CUs)
32 ROPS (32 ROPS)

7770 specs (Xbone in brackets)
1.28 TFLOPS (1.2 TFLOPS)
72GB/s memory bandwidth (68 GB/s)
10 CUs (12 CUs)
16 ROPS (16 ROPS)

The point is, when these two AMD cards are hooked up to PCs with otherwise identical specs, the 7850 gives 2 times the performance over the 7770, even though it only has 1½ times the CUs.

If MS downgrade the Xbone further, the performance difference between it and the PS4 will be more than double.
That is not how this works.

1. Narrower BUS leads to higher overhead. So you have less usable bandwidth, increased latencies and expend more time processing data. GPUs suffers a lot with narrow buses.
2. Unified memory pool makes better use of bandwidth. You don't have a PCIe between GPU/VRAM and CPU/Main RAM. PC's GPUs have to brute force a lot of things to avoid that interface.
3. You are missing on purpose esRAM and movers.

Originally Posted by artist:
That doesnt negate any of his post. You can overclock the hell out of 7770's memory but it's performance wont go up because of other things such as pixel/texture fill rate, raw shader power etc. That comparison (7770/7850) is comparable with the Xbone/PS4 and there could be instances where the performance differences between a ~1-1.2TFlop and 1.8TFlop GPU could be twice.

You can also drop the double VRAM crutch, just look up the benches of a 1GB 7850 and it more or less performs like a 2GB 7850 except for a few corner cases.

Oh, so you get it but were simply dismissing it because of ..
You can't overclock a 128 bit BUS. This is just like that nonsense of compare GPUs using raw GFlops performance. Remember me of times when people compared CPUs using MIPS. For any given total bandwidth, it's better a bigger bus and slower ram than otherwise. This was an old debate at GTX280 (DDR3, 512 bits) vs HD4890 (GDDR5, 256 bits) era:

http://www.hwcompare.com/1473/geforc...n-hd-4890-1gb/

Industry moved to GDDR5 because it provides cheaper bandwidth, not because magic. Big buses are expensive both at chip and PCB. Even so, Nvidia delayed the transition as much as possible because of performance loses. But do not derrail, my point is that is better to have 60GB/s from DDR3 in a 256bit bus than from GDDR5 in a 128bit BUS for a GPU. Those 60GB/s aren't the same, you should know that. Do you or are you just pretending?

We now, for sure, than PS4 have more bandwidth than needed for such a mid tier GPU. Question here is if One GPU will be bandwidth starved or not with 68.3 GB/s and 102 GB/s (Not 68+102=170 as I'm used to read here) . You DON'T need 176GB/s to max such GPU. And much less in a GPU that is already slower than PS4 one.

If you ask me, I'm more worried about esram not being big enough with only 32mb than bandwidth.

Jesus, it's the same *&^ from Wii U threads all over again.

Originally Posted by SneakyStephan:
Bias and damage control.
Easy, easy, I'm an unarmed citizen. Don't shoot me!

Originally Posted by SPE:
The AMD cards I referenced both had GDDR5, even the Xbone equivalent.
Lol, and what if so? Your One 'equivalent' still have half the bus width and no extra bandwidth. It's GDDR5 the magic sauce now?


Yes, we all know PS4 solution is better and smarter than MS design. I would say more, it will be cheaper to manufacture in the future, with memory shrinking both in size and price, whereas MS will have to use expensive legacy DDR3 and a ton of chips. It always happens that overengineered consoles fails some way or another. Trying to solve problems so ahead on time is a waste of resources, because other specialized companies will do better. Happened to Saturn trying to overcome japanese CPUs lack of power. Happened to PS2 and 3 lacking GPU capabilities, and now it's happening to One lack of memory size. All problems that were solved at release time by other companies.

But you are trying to sell a PS2 to Xbox gap, and I'm not buying that.

My guesses:

Scenario 1: One GPU have higher clocks than PS4 GPU (As it should). Minor differences, close to 360 to PS3.
Scenario 2: Same clocks. Mild difference, Digital Foundry goes out of bussines some months after consoles release.
Scenario 3: One have lower clocks, LOL festival. Slowdowns even on sport transmissions.
 
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