Xbox One in trouble.

[Nether]

I dont agree at all. Its not bad for the industry - the money that people get from reselling games is generally invested into new games. People who cant resell their games, cant buy as many games.

And why is it their right to restrict what I do with a game? Does Toyota care if I resell my car - no they dont. Does the builder care if I sell my house? No he doesnt.

I can sell music albums, dvds, books, everything. Its only technology that has enabled corporations to restrict used game sales.

But there is a difference, people are comparing this 'old' way of doing things without knowing how much it costs to develop a game, games have come a long way since 1980. It takes a budget of millions to produce a product.

You cant compare essentials stuff with luxury, if you can't afford games, then you probably shouldn't be buying them.

Nobody is forcing you to buy the consoles anyway.

Yeah I know, its all about publisher corporate greed, but imagine this, lets say used games is banned( which might happen for xbox and ps), people would probable be more tech savvy about buying a game, its a lot of money, if the game review sucks,nobody would buy it, the developers and publishers would then rather create better higher quality games, which I believe would be better for everyone.

 

[saffakanera]

Basically, MS decided at the beginning of Xbox One development that they wanted it to be an all around entertainment center with a strong focus on TV and wanted the system to be able to share apps with Windows 8.




For this reason they needed to dedicate 3GB of RAM to the OS.




For this reason they needed 8GB of RAM total.




To not break the bank and work within current tech limitations they had to use DDR3.




DDR3 alone would not give them the necessary gaming performance so they needed a huge amount of ESRAM on the APU and the Move whatevers.




This meant the APU had to be much more complex than the PS4's despite inferior performance.




This has lead to yield and performance problems.




All of this has put them way behind schedule.




So you see the entire problem is they tried to make a gaming console where gaming was not the primary focus. All problems have stemmed from there.

 

[Wyzak]

I think used games is bad for the industry.

If you're using steam for any reason (or origin) then you can't really complain about used games at all.

I don't like publishers greed on the gaming industry and the profits they try to squeezes out of the gaming community, but second hand gaming isn't how it is suppose to work.

If you are wondering why I have this opinion check out Total Halibuts video on second hand gaming, and his thoughts on this, I generally agree with what he says.

Blizzard is an excellent example of how their products don't get influenced by second hand games.

If you want to sell your games you have to sell your entire account, as it should be.

Steam isn't available on consoles. If it wasn't for second hand game sales I wouldn't own a single xbox360 game, or even the console for that matter. I wouldn't have 90% of the Wii and Wii-U games that I have today. So just think about that for a second. If second hand games are gone, that money (even though it isn't 100% of the starting price) wouldn't find it's way back into the gaming industry at all.

 

[Nether]

Do you even use windows 8? MS stock is doing so well right now that Mr Gates is once again the richest dude in the world. comparing the two companies is like comparing a pea to an orange.

I get why them focusing on the media aspect would alienate hardcore gamers but maybe you should be playing pc games instead anyways?

As far as I'm concerned having an all encompassing media device is a very smart move on their part.

I use windows 8 all the time, and guess what, I dislike it, because of the simple reason my choice was taken away.

How hard can it be to boot to desktop directly, and have my start button back.

I would like to see the tiles be applied like widgets on my desktop, damn even I have better innovative ideas then MS.

But maybe we shouldn't derail this tread to a "Win 8 hate thread".

 

[Wyzak]

Maybe if MS learned to better communicate people would be mouthing off like this (me included). Their silence on all the things that 'might' give them bad publishing just enforces bad reputation, and people start to suspect the worst.

I received an email this morning from the Double Fine guys who are making broken age and Massive chalice. They expressed their interest in porting their games to console and they said how open and welcoming Nintendo and Sony have been. Not a word about MS. That says a lot to me.

 

[Way69]

In terms of used games, Microsoft did announce that they would support it. I cant believe how much people rant and rave when they dont yet have all the facts.

 

[Wyzak]

You cant compare essentials stuff with luxury, if you can't afford games, then you probably shouldn't be buying them.

Nobody is forcing you to buy the consoles anyway.

I can easily afford to buy the games at retail price, but I prefer to wait a few months and buy two or three for the same price because my gaming time is very limited anyway.

You are defeating your own argument. If we don't buy the games second hand or the consoles 'anyway' then less money ends up in the industry. And that is BAD for the industry.

 

[Way69]

I use windows 8 all the time, and guess what, I dislike it, because of the simple reason my choice was taken away.

How hard can it be to boot to desktop directly, and have my start button back.

I would like to see the tiles be applied like widgets on my desktop, damn even I have better innovative ideas then MS.

But maybe we shouldn't derail this tread to a "Win 8 hate thread".

My grandmother also struggles with change, hence the reason she still has windows 95 on her machine.

 

[Wyzak]

In terms of used games, Microsoft did announce that they would support it. I cant believe how much people rant and rave when they dont yet have all the facts.

MS has also said that there would be a cost involved in activating second hand games. Saying that everything will be okay, when you don't know the facts is just as bad as saying it won't be okay. The fact that MS is being so evasive about it isn't a good sign.

 

[Ancalagon]

Do you even use windows 8? MS stock is doing so well right now that Mr Gates is once again the richest dude in the world. comparing the two companies is like comparing a pea to an orange.

I get why them focusing on the media aspect would alienate hardcore gamers but maybe you should be playing pc games instead anyways?

As far as I'm concerned having an all encompassing media device is a very smart move on their part.

I'm using it right now.

Dont take my word for it - look at other people's reactions. Look at what Wall Street said - Sony's stock rose while MS's fell. What does that say to you?

But there is a difference, people are comparing this 'old' way of doing things without knowing how much it costs to develop a game, games have come a long way since 1980. It takes a budget of millions to produce a product.

You cant compare essentials stuff with luxury, if you can't afford games, then you probably shouldn't be buying them.

Nobody is forcing you to buy the consoles anyway.

Yeah I know, its all about publisher corporate greed, but imagine this, lets say used games is banned( which might happen for xbox and ps), people would probable be more tech savvy about buying a game, its a lot of money, if the game review sucks,nobody would buy it, the developers and publishers would then rather create better higher quality games, which I believe would be better for everyone.

Vodka is a luxury - I can sell a bottle if I want to. So is a Mercedes Benz - I can sell it to.

I know exactly how much it costs to make a game, and I still think games should be allowed to be resold.

And I think you miss the crucial point - just because something is expensive, does not give you the right to restrict a consumer's rights. To develop a new line of cars costs a lot more than making a game, but I dont see BMW asking for new laws to make sure they get their money back. They take a risk - it is what doing business is about. Game publishers are like the music industry - they fought the change for ages, and they are still fighting it - they want to dictate to the market instead of reacting to changes in the market. Sorry guys, I dont get why you should be treated differently to any other industry.

If something is expensive to make, you either A) reduce costs, or B) pass the cost onto the consumer in the form of higher prices. This is what DLC is. You do not try to restrict their legal rights to resell your game. Or how about C) - you realize that your business model of producing ever more complicated games is actually not sustainable? Look at EA - dont think they have made a profit in the last 5 years. MS has never made any money from the Xbox. It has cost more to make than it has generated. This, to me, is a sign of a problem with the underlying business model.

It doesnt matter whether games are luxury or not - I can resell a bag of carrots, I can sell a high end dining experience, I can sell a car, I can sell a hot air balloon trip. Why not a game?

People are stupid and wont change the way they consume things - they never have. Look at the way they consume music - most people buy what they are told to buy. Look at SimCity - everyone knew about the DRM before launch, but they still bought it, and then cried about it.

 

[Way69]

MS has also said that there would be a cost involved in activating second hand games. Saying that everything will be okay, when you don't know the facts is just as bad as saying it won't be okay. The fact that MS is being so evasive about it isn't a good sign.

Evasive... Tell me, do you even know what the ps4 looks like yet?

They dont need to tell you jacksh$t, neither console is even available yet.

 

[Ancalagon]

My grandmother also struggles with change, hence the reason she still has windows 95 on her machine.

Flip I hate this argument. Windows 8 fanboys always use it when they have nothing else to fallback on.

I have no problem with change - I started using an Android phone after years of regular candy bar phones. I used Windows 8, I really tried, but had to load that thing that gives me my start menu back.

And even MS realizes it was a stuff up, hence Windows 8.1

 

[saffakanera]

Evasive... Tell me, do you even know what the ps4 looks like yet?

They dont need to tell you jacksh$t, neither console is even available yet.

Plenty of credible insiders around, you just need to know where to look

 

[Way69]

I'm using it right now.

Dont take my word for it - look at other people's reactions. Look at what Wall Street said - Sony's stock rose while MS's fell. What does that say to you?

which is why MS stock right now is the highest its been in 10 years. As Steve Jobs said "Customers don't know what they want".

 

[Nether]

Steam isn't available on consoles. If it wasn't for second hand game sales I wouldn't own a single xbox360 game, or even the console for that matter. I wouldn't have 90% of the Wii and Wii-U games that I have today. So just think about that for a second. If second hand games are gone, that money (even though it isn't 100% of the starting price) wouldn't find it's way back into the gaming industry at all.

The second hand money isn't going to the gaming industry, its just going to shops hands. (And the reason why MS won't charge customer, but the outlets that try to sell used games).

I'm sure you wouldn't like it a major game developer stopped creating games because it wasn't financially feasible anymore. (Developing games cost millions)

You imagine if there was less to choose from? That would suck!

And yeah, we all know steam isn't available on consoles, but almost all games are now available on platforms like it, and if consoles migrate to it, then you won't have much choice in the matter.

I'm pretty sure that MS and Sony have been requested by developers to help out in this matter.

Its change that will happen, for better or worse.

I think people's thoughts are that games and game disks are their property, this is not correct, you agree to an agreement to use the software, you don't get to OWN it, they developer /publisher owns the software.

There is definitely abuse by greedy companies, but we are to blame for this, we vote with our wallets, and I'll rest my case (opinion) on this:

If you don't like it, don't buy it.

PS. an alternative would be for developers to choose if their game may be sold for second hand, then let people choose if the game is worth their hard earned cash.

 

[saffakanera]

http://www.neogaf.com/forum/showpost.php?p=61470097&postcount=2641

Nice summary of this mess, adding to OP>

 

[Maverick Jester]

Still too early to tell if this will be a stumbling block for Microsoft... But in terms of raw specification, and media-centric console activities, Sony are ahead of Microsoft by default.

 

[saffakanera]

RAM bandwidth plays a massive part in graphical quality. The PS3's ram can supply around 2GB of data to the GPU per frame in a 60fps game, whilst the Xbone's less than 1GB when there is no post processing done.

The ESRAM will help when it comes to adding post processing effects after the first render pass on the frame is completed by the GPU etc but it won't really help by getting more data to the GPU when the raw frame is actually being put together, apart from maybe the odd tweak here and there. Post processing as a second render pass on the frame can take a lot of frame time as it is GPU and bandwidth heavy so the ESRAM will definitely help there, but again the GPU is a big part of the equation in this, and its not like the PS4 will be bandwidth starved in this area either and it has a faster GPU to process the changes.

Its becoming a doubt as to whether the 360's GPU could actually process 1GB of data per frame anyway as its looking to become the bottleneck itself looking at the specs of it.

Games on the PC have regularly been hitting 2GB of unique data per frame at 1080p recently so you can see the logic behind the PS4's design, and the non logic behind the Xbox ones.

This is in basic terms of course as every engine is different in its hardware requirements.

 

[Way69]

Flip I hate this argument. Windows 8 fanboys always use it when they have nothing else to fallback on.

I have no problem with change - I started using an Android phone after years of regular candy bar phones. I used Windows 8, I really tried, but had to load that thing that gives me my start menu back.

And even MS realizes it was a stuff up, hence Windows 8.1

I've read plenty of arguments online where people are pleading for them not to bring the start menu back. The strategy will make more sense when more hardware based on haswell comes out and we have more form factors similar to the surface.

I actually think the case for a unified OS is quite compelling, its a long term plan which might offend people like you over the short term.

 

[Nether]

Really, developers are raving about a console that has not been released????

I'm wrong about Sony, how then on their second try at a console did MS manage to ship more units?

Go look at Microsofts share price, I dont think they're doing badly at all...

Lately the only thing Sony does well is hold off negotiations with Apple on streaming music.

It really is early days and so far Sony has given even less information about their console that MS has. People here are saying that MS doesnt learn from mistakes which is a complete farce considering windows 7 and the upcoming windows 8.1.

Because everyone makes mistakes.

And this isn't Sony's second try at a console btw, if you've forgotten Playstation 3. The PS1 and PS2 console where a resounding success, and they did it without internet most of the time, are you denying that Sony was ever successful?

Listen, I'm not saying Sony IS going to be better, this will all be made clear once these consoles go on sale. I just think they are smart enough to know what the gaming community wants, and what their developer base wants, finding the middle ground here would make most of everyone happy, just because you only want the best for yourself without considering all the merits of the matter doesn't make it right.

To you reference about Microsofts share price, I don;t think it was only influenced by the Xbox 360, they are only now breaking even with it, there are analysts who believe MS should sell of their entertainment division (xbox).

Link : http://www.wpcentral.com/microsoft-restructure-will-focus-devices-services