Yet another Kremlin opposer killed

Arbiter said:
No, they're not hawkish or hardline. I simply break things down to the most basic of truths. I am amazed every day how difficult that is for 99% of the world.

Going into the details would be wasted on people who don't understand the basics; government is government and they act similarly all over the world.
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The thrust of my argument is that the end does NOT justify the means. It is not feasible for the general public (us) to make judgements on the line that the ‘officials’ promote. The nation with the most control of the media (USA) gets to push its agenda. But human rights abuses are generally visible.

Take the recent spat between Russia and S. Ossetia. The USA and Georgia thought it OK to shell S. Ossetia and cause death and misery for trivial ‘geopolitical’ reasons. Russia stepped-in (for their own geopolitical reasons, no doubt). They are usually portrayed as the bad guy (this is not an exoneration of their usually dismal behaviour). For whatever reasons, Russia halted human rights abuses. Georgia’s president (the weasel) whined on TV and the USA took a pious (and hypocritical stand) and moaned about NATO and EU membership. Rubbish – the lot of them.
 
Indeed, the end does not justify the means. Individual rights should be the no1 priority. Clear lines, black and white. But what happens in reality is that other issues come into play.

Should Tommy's dog be taken away because his barking pisses off the neighbours?

Should banks be saved from their own failures?

Should rich people be forced to help the lazy poor?

And black and white gets so smudged, the entire colour scale turns grey and people get killed because "it was necessary to maintain society and stability". What a crock ****.

Moderation really is the worst answer. Because it is never moderate.
 
A critic of the Kremlin is killed, another reason why I think SA is the best place to be compared to Russia. Imagine how may people wuld have been killed is this country for being critical of Zuma if SA had the same "punishment" for critics.
 
Oh yes, no one ever got shot "execution style" in South Africa. No one. Zuma is a friendly little bumpkin who wants to hug us all. Just don't forget his machine gun or he might throw a shower.
 
Arbiter said:
Oh yes, no one ever got shot "execution style" in South Africa. No one. Zuma is a friendly little bumpkin who wants to hug us all. Just don't forget his machine gun or he might throw a shower.
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True. Even lowly councilors get shot for political reasons all the time.
 
Palimino said:
I tend towards that view. The West is just as scumbaggy except that because of their ideology, they are more adept at concealing scumbaggery. With all the propaganda, misdirection, etc. about covert operations, you would never discern any truth anywhere anyway. My view is to privilege human rights – that (at least) is transparent.
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Could you give me a list of American journalists and humanitarian aid workers the American government has killed in the last 10 years for opposing the white house?

I can give you a dozen that have mysteriously died in Russia in the last couple of months.

I just want to make sure we are being reasonable in this discussion and not comparing apples with rotten potatoes.

Palimino said:
Take the recent spat between Russia and S. Ossetia. The USA and Georgia thought it OK to shell S. Ossetia and cause death and misery for trivial ‘geopolitical’ reasons.
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Im lost on this.. America said that was okay?
 
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Arbiter said:
Indeed, the end does not justify the means. Individual rights should be the no1 priority. Clear lines, black and white. But what happens in reality is that other issues come into play.

Should Tommy's dog be taken away because his barking pisses off the neighbours?

Should banks be saved from their own failures?

Should rich people be forced to help the lazy poor?

And black and white gets so smudged, the entire colour scale turns grey and people get killed because "it was necessary to maintain society and stability". What a crock ****.

Moderation really is the worst answer. Because it is never moderate.
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What I am trying to say is that monitoring human rights abuse is **visible**. I am not claiming it is perfect but it is far, far better than believing the ‘official’ line propagated (for their own reasons) by the conventional media. I would rather react on human rights (I can see abuse) violations then on ‘official’ propaganda fairy-tales that a spin doctor has manufactured for a covert operation (that blew-up) or a bankrupt ideology where the end justifies the means.
 
Palimino said:
The thrust of my argument is that the end does NOT justify the means. It is not feasible for the general public (us) to make judgements on the line that the ‘officials’ promote. The nation with the most control of the media (USA) gets to push its agenda. But human rights abuses are generally visible.

Take the recent spat between Russia and S. Ossetia. The USA and Georgia thought it OK to shell S. Ossetia and cause death and misery for trivial ‘geopolitical’ reasons. Russia stepped-in (for their own geopolitical reasons, no doubt). They are usually portrayed as the bad guy (this is not an exoneration of their usually dismal behaviour). For whatever reasons, Russia halted human rights abuses. Georgia’s president (the weasel) whined on TV and the USA took a pious (and hypocritical stand) and moaned about NATO and EU membership. Rubbish – the lot of them.
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So in your world because they're not perfect they're all equally bad :erm:
 
w1z4rd said:
Could you give me a list of American journalists and humanitarian aid workers the American government has killed in the last 10 years for opposing the white house?

I can give you a dozen that have mysteriously died in Russia in the last couple of months.

I just want to make sure we are being reasonable in this discussion and not comparing apples with rotten potatoes.



Im lost on this.. America said that was okay?
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Journos mysteriously dying in Russia is not the same as political assassinations. Please try and get this in your head dude.

As for Georgia, the US were training Georgian troops just prior to their invasion of S. Ossettia. Russian troops found evidence of US troops and advisors on the front line. The US admits it had advisors there. The obvious suspicion is that they got 'the nod' from the White House to go in.
 
w1z4rd said:
Could you give me a list of American journalists and humanitarian aid workers the American government has killed in the last 10 years for opposing the white house?
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You are getting involved in semantic nit-pickery. The American style is not to shoot critics (they do not have the control of the population that Russia has). The IRS would investigate the victim for income tax evasion. Local schools would ‘mysteriously’ be unable to accommodate children. ‘Errors’ would occur on bank statements and utility bills. Electricity and water would be ‘mysteriously’ cut (with apologies). Petty harassments like that.

Im lost on this.. America said that was okay?
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More nit-pickery. America supported Georgia (even after the slaughter in S. Ossetia). This implies (where you get ‘lost’) that anything that Georgia or it’s weasel president did was OK.
 
Palimino said:
You are getting involved in semantic nit-pickery. The American style is not to shoot critics (they do not have the control of the population that Russia has). The IRS would investigate the victim for income tax evasion. Local schools would ‘mysteriously’ be unable to accommodate children. ‘Errors’ would occur on bank statements and utility bills. Electricity and water would be ‘mysteriously’ cut (with apologies). Petty harassments like that.
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and that( if it actually happens) is the same as killing somebody?

Do you think if a Michael Moore type moron took on the Kremlin he would not be risking his liberty or even his life? In fact is Michael Moore harassed to the extent you have claimed happen to opponents of a U.S administration?
 
Alan said:
and that( if it actually happens) is the same as killing somebody?
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The objective is to stop critics (unless you feel Russia gets a thrill). Russian methods are crude but effective (America probably envies them). American methods are more refined, but just as effective.

It’s like SA. Apartheid critics would have experienced the American model. ANC critics experience the Russian model.

Do you think if a Michael Moore type moron took on the Kremlin he would not be risking his liberty or even his life? In fact is Michael Moore harassed to the extent you have claimed happen to opponents of a U.S administration?
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He is a high-profile personality who is media savvy (producer, director, etc.) Embarrassing questions would be asked although an ‘accidental’ car accident or mishap is not out of the question.
 
Palimino said:
The American style is not to shoot critics (they do not have the control of the population that Russia has).
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Maybe not for speaking out against the government, but there is a much more sensitive topic much more important to the US, if you're vocal about Israel you'll end up like this guy...
After police fished the body of Riad Hamad out of Lady Bird Lake in East Austin, Texas, they told the media the non-violent Palestinian activist and directing coordinator of the Palestine Children’s Welfare Fund had committed suicide.

“Right now, the indications are that this was not, there was not foul play involved,” police Sgt. Joseph Chacon told KXAN, never mind Mr. Hamad was found bound with duct tape. “Parkgoers who saw the body said the death did not look accidental. They said the man’s face was wrapped with duct tape, and his arms appeared to be tied in front of his body.” KXAN did not bother to explain how Hamad managed to wrap himself in duct tape.
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Is it possible a neocon hit team or as likely a Mossad “bayonet” team took out the school teacher Riad Hamad?

Certainly, it makes more sense than the lame claim that Mr. Hamad wrapped himself up in duct tape and threw himself in Lady Bird Lake.
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http://www.infowars.com/did-palestinian-activist-riad-hamad-commit-suicide/
 
Aqua_lung said:
Maybe not for speaking out against the government, but there is a much more sensitive topic much more important to the US...
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I think the corporations are also sensitive about pollution. They contribute to political campaigns. A lot of mutual back-scratching goes on. I am thinking about the Erin Brokavitch (sp – I know it’s wrong) brou haha. I think there is a lot of subtle intimidation and threats in ‘the land of the brave and home of the free’.
 
Aqua_lung said:
...if you're vocal about Israel you'll end up like this guy...
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Is it possible a neocon hit team or as likely a Mossad “bayonet” team took out the school teacher Riad Hamad?
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I don’t think Mossad. I would credit them with a lot more efficiency. They wouldn’t leave duct tape on. They would be much better killers and they would ensure that the killing looked accidental.
 
I don’t think Mossad. I would credit them with a lot more efficiency. They wouldn’t leave duct tape on. They would be much better killers and they would ensure that the killing looked accidental.
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Come on now. You were on a roll of brightness and then came to a sudden jolt of duhness. The main weapon of the 21st century isn't guns and fireworks. It's media.

The article reports an official saying "no signs of foul play" and 95% of the people who read it believe it and move along. They never hear of the duct tape.

Why would Mossad, if it were them, even bother with making it look like an accident if it isn't necessary to do so anymore? Do the job dirty and ensure the right image comes out in the media. Sumner Redstone, Rupert Murdoch ascended.

This way, other dissidents get the message required and the politically correct insects in the first world never bat an eyelid.

That, palo, is efficiency.
 
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