2004 ICASA complaint

<blockquote id="quote"><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica" id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"><i>Originally posted by Tharaxis</i>
<br />Hah, that's laughable, a regulator that is unable to regulate the entity they are supposed to be regulating if the entity decides they don't want to play.

What kind of ridiculous regulatory body is this, they should have the power to do what must be done, not just sit back and say "oh well, we can now do very little".
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote"></font id="quote">

Agreed, it's totally ridiculous. And this is exactly why Telkom has not bothered to reply. It's like they believe they are above the law.

RPM, do you still intend on holding back from the media, as ICASA requested? I was all for holding back but as far as I can see, it's just one big delay tactic by Telkom.


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United we stand!
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Hi VQuest

I am busy with the media release as we speak. The fact that Telkom and Mr. Nxasana (Telkom CEO) has not honoured their agreement with ICASA is quite newsworthy. I think even ICASA is quite irritated with Telkom, and to quote the acting ICASA chairperson in her letter to Mr. Nxasana: “Telkom is a listed company and it is time it acts like one”.

Regards,

RPM
[email protected]
 
Telkom's armour holds firm, spotless & polished.[8]

Those who stare at the past have their backs turned to the future.
 
I know this is not relevant to the complaint, but maybe it is. Mad posted a thread about getting Telkom Struck off the PSA role. Well perhaps this organization can send their Chairman, Mr Tim Modise a nice letter explaining our situation and although we have followed the normal channels, we are met once again with a brick wall by Telkom their founding sponsor. RPM mentioned "<b> I think even ICASA is quite irritated with Telkom, and to quote the acting ICASA chairperson in her letter to Mr. Nxasana: “Telkom is a listed company and it is time it acts like one” </b>"
The ICASA chairman hit the nail on the button with this point. It is extremely unprofessional from a listed company and deserves the attention not only from ICASA, but also the likes of PSA and other institutions. Telkom as a PSA Company should be setting an example in the market place. Quite frankly they are making a mockery of the PSA’s criteria. When I see that logo, I’m sorry, but all I can think of is Telkom.


<b><hr noshade size="1"></b><font size="2"><font color="red"><b>You can take Telkom out of the Post Office but you can't take the Post Office out of Telkom.</b></font id="red"></font id="size2">
 
BTTB, I agree with you. If Telkom doesn't respect their customers enough to keep their promises then they don't look like very proudly South African to me. Maybe we should explore this avenue some more.

RPM, what do you think?


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United we stand!
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Tim Modise has been sent an Email, but anything can be lost in Cyber Space.
I think a formal letter from MyADSl can be sent to their Cape Town offices (021-4220511) and CC Telkom and CC Icasa and whoever else we can think of. From my experience with Council Matters, you send everyone a copy so that noone can point fingers later and say they never knew anything about it. I have fax numbers for the Mayors Office, Public Protector and the Premier. But they are probably too busy canvassing for the next elections. As I think perhaps a political alternative to our problem might show better results.
I can discuss this matter futher later, but I must go do some work for a change.

Later,
BTTB

<b><hr noshade size="1"></b><font size="2"><font color="red"><b>You can take Telkom out of the Post Office but you can't take the Post Office out of Telkom.</b></font id="red"></font id="size2">
 
This whole deal is getting very interesting...RPM keep up the good work!

Is it possible for you to post the media release here for us to peruse, before making it "public"? Also who are you planning to release the news to?



<font color="blue">Telkom needs a leash, ICASA needs some guts, and the </font id="blue"><font color="red">SA consumer</font id="red"><font color="blue"> needs to make it happen</font id="blue">
 
Hi folks

I have heard from ICASA again, and they provided me with a response from Telkom today. I will publish the response as soon as it is converted to electronic format, but it contains nothing new. The same old unsound excuses. We have the choice to take the matter further and I can strongly suggest that we take this route. ICASA is supporting our complaint and was effective up to this stage. The response from Dianne Ngoasheng from ICASA:

“I hope you have received the fax that I sent by now. You will receive the rest of the document by post sometime during the week. As suggested in the fax cover we would like to address the ADSL service as a whole and would very much appreciate your input on the matter. You can do by email I want to suggest that council calls for a public hearing on the matter so the issue can be highlighted.

The complaint can only be escalated on the week of 22 March 2004 as agreed.”

Your comments will be appreciated.

Regards,

RPM
[email protected]
 
I look forward to reading the response.

We must absolutely take this matter further. The reason we approached ICASA is for that exact reason. We've exhausted all the options dealing directly with Telkom, as it simply falls on deaf ears. We have a problem and we now need ICASA to take a stand.




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United we stand!
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It looks very promising though I hope it is not just smoke and mirrors i.e. delay tactics in sheep's clothing. Telkom could still be twisting arms behind the scenes... only time will tell.
 
I would most certainly like to say a few things in that public hearing... like *cough* cross-subsidisation.
 
This is great news,

A public hearing, Telkom can’t duck that one.

If Mr White says he is ready for an audit then this is the chance we have been looking for. I think that once the dates are announced we will get a slew of users, businesses and ISP's coming forward with questions, and the press will gladly cover the event, most likely on the front page.

Let's feed Ms. Ngoasheng with all the info she needs and give her all the space that she requests i.e. hold of from the press or politicians for now.

I think we have found a friend at last.

Cheers
Chris
 
Hi folks

I have just posted Telkom’s reply to the ICASA complaint in our news section. Please give your views on this reply in this thread. I will compile these views and forward this to ICASA as part of MyADSL’s reply. There are obviously many points that need to be addressed in this Telkom reply, and your help will be of great value.

Regards,

RPM
[email protected]
 
Thanks rpm

While Telkom's response is as un-inspiring and almost dismissive (as expected), I really think the notion of a public hearing is a good one. I think it is something what we *must* pursue as an organised community, to make our voices heard. Please keep us posted of venue, dates etc. I for one am passionate enough about this to take a day's leave if necessary, and appeal to everyone else who has muttered a complaint about ADSL to take the opportunity to stand up and be counted. Well done, rpm on keeping the embers burning. [8D]
 
This part to me is most interesting:

<b>"We are certain that you will agree that Telkom does not dictate the technology of the product, we simply sell the product as designed." </b>

ADSL was designed to run at 512K max locally, lets take the extremely expensive international bandwith out of the equation. So therefore the American and European Telecoms companies must be geniuses in their own right. These guys can make it run faster than 3 Meg. Amazing hey wonder how the hell the do that seeing the technology was only designed the way Telkom is using it.

<b>On the aspect of the costs of line rental, we advise that the additional rent over and above the internet costs, covers the ADSL port cards that make it possible to use the higher frequency in the network.</b>

So how much do you guys think a card like this can cost? Would it be possible to get pricing like this? Point being if it costs lets say roughly R 2000 per ADSL port, basically per user. The rate they charging they paying that back in 3.5 months. I am no financial guru but surely expecting a return on investment in 3 months is not a normal trend. Keep in mind no other upgrade was done to your home.

<b>Telkom currently has approximately 16 000 customers and according to research undertaken by Markinor existing customers scored 88% on overall satisfaction with the service.</b>

Question 1: How many people completed the survey 44 positives answers out of 50 people also gives 88%

Question 2: Why does Telkom not e-mail all there ADSL users and ask them to go fill in a reply on a 3rd party website or even ICASA's website and rate the service.

<b>On the issue of the allegedly high cost of the service, we must point out that the fact that we are situated in South Africa means that international bandwidth is purchased at a premium and it not unlimited.</b>

Well guess what. I found some 120 Gb/s line lying around they could use. So why would Telkom spearhead this project if they can't make use of it? Seems they wasting money then.

http://www.safe-sat3.co.za/HomePage/SAT3_WASC_SAFE_Home.asp
http://www.telkom.co.za/products/afrolique.jsp

Point being they obviously helped paying for it so they surely own part of the cable. Let's say 10% (maybe getting real figures a good idea) that is 12Gb/s. I doubt we are even using near that.

Just my 2cents
 
Interesting.

I just have one question. I pay my ISP charges as rental to a modem that is utilized by many people and thus the cost is covered by all who use the service. If however the port card I am paying for is exclusively mine as Telkom seems to suggest then surely at the end of a determinable period that object would become my property just as the modem they installed at my house becomes my property. If I then move Telkom would have to move MY port card with me or start paying me for the use of my property in their exchange.

But then we knew Telkom was just going to blow a lot of smoke around this complaint.

Swonk taht eno ylno eht si nidrrym.
 
It would be interesting to do an analysis of what they did not answer:

The following comes to my mind:

The lack of an acceptable SLA

The price comparisons with other countries.

How can others supply superspeed ADSL at lower rates than Telkom is charging - not for bandwidth - but merely for the equipment to allow the higher frequencies. Surely Japan, The UK, and USA use similar equipment as Telkom.

The line rental cost excludes bandwidth costs - it should be for hardware alone.

South Africa needs World Class Broadband at World Competitive Prices.
 
The exact hardware costs at the exchange would be interesting to pursue. Each card in the DSLAM contains a number of ports. How many I don't recall. If Telkom is making you pay for your port, how long before it's been paid for? Obviously Telkom expects you to keep paying for as long as you have DSL.

First thing to find out is what make and model of DSLAM they use.

If anyone has the opportunity to speak with a Telkom tech, they will usually readily part with this information.
 
<blockquote id="quote"><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica" id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"><i>Originally posted by rpm</i>

Please give your views on this reply in this thread.<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote"></font id="quote">

Hi rpm,

Round One to Myadsl ....... let's be properly prepared.

Please could you ask ICASA to provide us with all the Acts, laws,
regulations which make up Telkom's agreements and obligations.

Please could you ask ICASA to provide us with all Telkom data
to which we would be entitled in order to substantiate our case
and respond to their latest letter.

ADSL is a very cheap technology for any telco - this is why
it is so cheap elsewhere.

We must prove that Telkom has not provided a "best effort"
We must prove that Telkom has provided a "maximum profit effort"
and has not acted in accordance with its obligations as a carrier.

Once we have all the facts it ought to be easy to prove that
Telkom has acted in an anti-competitive manner and we can then
submit a claim against Telkom on behalf of all ADSL users who
choose to participate.
 
What constitutes a Formal as opposed to a Consumer Complaint in <b>ICASA's eyes</b>. This needs clarity from ICASA as all the trouble that MyADSL has taken to sort out this matters, hardly deserves to be added to the pile of consumer complaints. We are an organization and we deserve to treated as one. Do they need a constitution etc?

Telkoms answer is vague and generalizing and not in point form which I believe is what ICASA requested from them.

Points in question.
1. Line Rental. Telkom admits again the high cost of bandwidth on this topic. Surely this is an ISP cost and not a line rental cost. This point alone is going to be Telkoms downfall in our complaint as this is cross subsidisation. Considering this, what is the cost then that the ISP charges then? What is that for? Surely it’s for the bandwidth too. So which is it then? An ISP cost or a line rental cost as I am confused. Consider the line rental of ISDN as opposed to ADSL. Surely the costs cannot be so different. We are still using the same wire that ISDN or 56K is using. Only the exchange has a DSLAM on which this is joined. Does the DSLAM cost that much then?
A lot of unanswered questions on this topic.

2. No direct reply to the 3 gig issue. This and point 1 are the 2 main answers all ADSL users want, over and above port shaping and few others.

3. Modem Cost. This is another point that is going to catch Telkom out. Modems are now free apparently. Telkom has to be cross subsidising the Line rental to pay for this. Surely the customers who paid for modems should get a refund and the customers that bought their own modems should get a discount on line rental. I say line rental as I can only assume once again that this is what must be paying for the modems. No business gives anything away for free. It's just a marketing ploy. The cost is spread out over a few months from the line rental. It’s the only logical explanation. Telkom may not cross subsidise. This is a very unfair scenario, not only for the ADSL user who has a modem, but also for the suppliers of these modems.

4. The ADSL service. Telkom should furnish ICASA the Markinor's survey before the hearing so that it can be discussed free and openly. ICASA should request this survey from Telkom and ICASA should CC MyADSL a copy. As Telkom are basically calling us liars. So we need to defend ourselves properly on this point. IMO, I think Markinor gave Telkom the answers they wanted. Also keeping their client happy. BTW also another PSA company.
Anyway as any market survey is flawed as if they are to be true they need to take a bigger block of consumers. Taking 8% of 100% and deducing that 88% of the 100% are happy is hardly a democratic way of or statistically correct way of assuming anything. Also as Telkom stated that their are currently 16000 ADSL customers which is a 60% increase since it was 10000 before, so the survey once again is flawed. As the customer base has increased by 60% that means that the statistics supplied cover less than 8% of the base, but actually closer to 5% or 4%. So saying that 5 out of every 100 people have been interviewed makes a market research valid is ridiculous. Imagine if our politics were run like that. 5% can speak for the other 95%. Very flawed statistics IMO.
Another interesting way of looking at this survey is from the amount of members MyADSL has. I believe it to be about 1300 and growing. This represents about 12 to 13% of the original figure of 10000. So if Markinor interviewed 880 odd people in their survey, which is also less than the amount of people who are members of MyADSL. They deduced from their survey that 88% of the market was "happy", then that leaves about 12% that are not. That means that everyone that has a gripe about ADSL has somehow all “miracly” joined MyADSL. Well that would be impossible for everyone in SA to know that even MyADSL even exists and even to have the inclination to even want to join MyADSL. What I know most SA consumers is they couldn’t be bothered or care. And I’m sure Markinor has some surveys that prove this point clearly.
Were any experts interviewed?
What were the questions asked and the multiple choice answer provided for each question?
Who provided the questions?

<blockquote id="quote"><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica" id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Each card in the DSLAM contains a number of ports. How many I don't recall<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote"></font id="quote">

I think it is 256.


<b><hr noshade size="1"></b><font size="2"><font color="red"><b>You can take Telkom out of the Post Office but you can't take the Post Office out of Telkom.</b></font id="red"></font id="size2">
 
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