2004 ICASA complaint

Cloud · Mar 15, 2004

since its almost election time, why does someone not try to get the politicians involved in the telecommunications debate.

think about it, if they start saying things like:

"Vote DA, we'll give the average south african the power to compete internationally by reshaping the telecommunication policy in south africa"

"Vote ANC, we'll build 1000 ADSL equiped houses a month and slash internet costs across the board to help south africa escape from the constraints of telkom-based internet."

etc etc etc.

godmode · Mar 15, 2004

Excellent work on the complaint. I can only hope that it gets the due attention it deserves.

Telkom's excuse of Bandwidth costs is laughable, they are still using the same bandwidth they had when they were charging people a body and a house for the Diginet services. They haven't increased their bandwidth overseas. So basically they are making pure profit on the ADSL service. Plus the infrastructure is exactly the same except for some extra cards, and despite what everyone thinks, POTS = Plain Old Telephone System, so they are trying to use anagrams to confuse the public into thinking they had to install major upgrades.

Life creeps up on you like a windshield on a bug.

neobyte · Mar 15, 2004

Why is it that Telkom use International bandwidth cost as their argument yet, include up and down LOCAL downloads in the total monthly downloads?

Congrates to everyone (mostly RPM) for their invlovment in this issue.[

][

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BTTB · Mar 15, 2004

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">From a earlier post:

quote: quote: Watch those votes on the article at ITWeb. So far 36 votes and Telkom still to get 1.

And if you do see a Yes, dont throw Mr White away who could be skulking around on these threads.

I see 1 vote. Aaah caught out. So Mr White does visit this forum. Ok so we have established that, are you coming to the braai then Mr White? Pap and Sous and Brandy and Coke included. <hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">

Its 106 votes now and counting. Its still only 1 against. So guys As I stated before, it must of been Mr White skulking around the forum. Hehe.

<hr noshade size="1">You can take Telkom out of the Post Office but you can't take the Post Office out of Telkom.

ajax · Mar 15, 2004

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">On the issue of the allegedly high cost of the service, we must point out that the fact that we are situated in South Africa means that international bandwidth is purchased at a premium and it not unlimited.
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">

This response from Telkom (see the News section paragraph 1.2) must have been written in a hurry and not by someone competent. The letter was not even put through a spelling/grammar checker...[

)]

Ajax

Bentley · Mar 15, 2004

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by Tharaxis
 So basically they're saying that if Telkom decides to delay or in any other way ignore the situation you're looking at a long time before there's any actual resolution to the complaint.

Gee... I wonder which route Telkom will take.
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">

Perhaps another angle is to also file a complaint with the Competitions Commission. They seem be quite receptive for complaints about Telkom at the moment...

Aspects of Telkom's ADSL service that could be interpreted to be anti-competitive are:
<ul>
<li>The monthly charge is set deliberately high to protect their revenue from voice calls: most heavy ADSL users were clocking up substantial call charges with PSTN/ISDN dial-up before they got ADSL. The cheaper they make the ADSL line charge, the more revenue they lose when heavy dial-up users switch to ADSL.</li>

<li> The major reason for the high international bandwidth charge, the only potential excuse for the 3Gbyte cap, is Telkom's own high charges for their half-circuit of the international data circuit. On high bandwidth circuits such as what ISPs would procure (34, 45 and 155 Mbps), Telkom's half-circuit charge is between 4 and 5 times higher than the half-circuit from the correspondent telco in UK, Europe or USA. This, unfortunately, is difficult to prove as the charges paid for these high bandwidth circuits to other operators are almost always heavily discounted because of the big deals involved. The list prices are probably somewhat in line with what Telkom charges, always.</li></ul>

Karnaugh · Mar 15, 2004

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">It just amazes me that the ANC who a decade ago came into power with liberal intentions can sit back and watch the SA Public getting screwed. They certainly have made a mess out of the telecommunication industry.<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">

Affraid I cant let that one slip. The "mess" as you call it is as a direct result of the previous government, the ANC have already done quite a bit to get towards deregulation

<hr noshade size="1">
"Since light travels faster than sound, people appear bright until you hear them speak."

NetLink Research

Cloudie · Mar 15, 2004

Thanks guys for doing all this work - only hope it'll pay off.

I don't know too much about the technical side of things (been leaving that up to you and just trawling the site) and the Telkom reply all sounds half decent and justified... but the truth still is that I arrived back in SA a few months ago with a thriving business that I set up with my UK ADSL connection to bring in around 8000GBP a month VERY eager to get things setup in SA because "now ADSL is available" and hey, I LOVE SA and would rather have the GBP RAIN converted to ZAR SUN! I struggled around in SA for a few weeks with an absolutely abysmal connection which at times I could not even connect to my overseas server and have now been forced back overseas to try and rescue what I can... Fine, Telkom had a few problems, like IP addressy shmags getting blocked because of some spam or e-mail viruses causing chaos. I connected to my UK ADSL in seconds and never had a fault for 2 years and paid R500pm (read it RAND!! "Business account" to boot)) for EVERYTHING!

So, Telkom: yes, your ADSL is a 'best effort' service (thanks for trying so hard

) and yes, you do not make any guarantees (who wants to really, it's just business and you are the NATIONAL service provider) and yes, maybe it is expensive because it costs you a lot to pay for the international watchamakallit... But I cannot afford the excuses and lack of solution providing discussions and so have to leave it be and find my own solutions. Like travelling overseas personally and running my business from there - suits my pocket Telkom, does it suit yours?

(I know I should not be addressing Telkom personally in this forum - but you never know who's reading it... Maybe that one voter for Telkom?)

BTTB · Mar 15, 2004

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Affraid I cant let that one slip. The "mess" as you call it is as a direct result of the previous government, the ANC have already done quite a bit to get towards deregulation<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">

Sure I agree. The Nats used Telkom to provide jobs for their potential voters and cash for their own coffers. Whereas the deregulation of telecommunications across the world has only stepped up pace over the last decade or so just like SA. But now, we are still waiting for the SNO to even out the playing fields, but alas, it isn’t enjoying priority status at government level. One can ponder why. Well now the ANC are in charge so the 70% shareholding left in Telkom is going into their coffers with the help of monopolistic pricing from Telkom. Plus all the taxes that Telkom pays to the SARS. And now the shoe is just on some other okes foot due to affirmative action. So are we as consumers better off. It just seems the same picture with a different frame to me.
Don’t get me wrong in my statement; I’m not anti affirmative action.
I personally thought that in another way, Telkom could have remained a state parastatal and continued providing jobs for the masses. But now it’s too late. It's just the consumer keeps having to foot the bill. And all we ask for is a quality product at a competitive price. It’s not much to ask. [

]

<hr noshade size="1">You can take Telkom out of the Post Office but you can't take the Post Office out of Telkom.

onionpeel · Mar 16, 2004

It's the same gravy train, with a different driver and some more carriages.[8]

Those who stare at the past have their backs turned to the future.

BTTB · Mar 16, 2004

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"> It's the same gravy train, with a different driver and some more carriages.<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">
Yes, that’s one way of looking at it.
The only thing different in this picture is that 30% of the carriages are occupied by foreigners who seem to have the foot on the petrol.

<hr noshade size="1">You can take Telkom out of the Post Office but you can't take the Post Office out of Telkom.

ASnogarD · Mar 16, 2004

Intresting article regarding UK broadband and DSLAM prices dropping by 50% which allow BT to drop its prices.

http://www.opticalkeyhole.com/keyhole/html/ukbroadband.asp?bhcd2=1079430705

ipodmusicman · Mar 16, 2004

Just a point to ponder, why is Telkom implementing the 3gig cap on traffic in the first place? Isn't the actual traffic coming from an ISP? Isn't the ISP responsible for providing internet access, but Telkom providing the network infrastructure - since we pay the ISP for net access right?

Then why do they say in thair response to the complaint that they have to institute the 3gig cap to provide the fastest service? I don't know of any cases overseas where the network infrastructure suffers so much that it causes huge, huge problems for other users.

So basically, they are conning us out of the service the ISP can provide which is the service we pay for when the 3gig cap hits.

Don't even get me started on port shaping, etc. I am not an ADSL subscriber because of all these problems. In my eyes, Telkom will make SO much more money if their offering was more attactive to the majority of people in SA in terms of cost, etc. Give me a good deal and I'll sign up right away!

Karnaugh · Mar 16, 2004

No, the ISP's resell value added services like E-Mail accounts etc. The ISP's lease RADIUS accounts from SAIX who are the actual providers of the bandwidth, ie at the end of the day - Telkom

It is indeed posible (if prices were not so high from telkom's side) to make an arrangement with Telkom for ISP's to route their ADSL customers into their own network - IS did this for a brief while (the details may not be exact).

<hr noshade size="1">
"Since light travels faster than sound, people appear bright until you hear them speak."

NetLink Research

BTTB · Mar 16, 2004

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"> Intresting article regarding UK broadband and DSLAM prices dropping by 50% which allow BT to drop its prices.<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">

Yes this is a very good reflection of what Telkom in the end will be forced to do. BT is Britains equivalent of Telkom.
The cost of equipment dropping by half and the advent of competition will also force Telkom to drops its line rental by half if they want to stay in business. Its a all a matter of, when is the competition coming? Its been over 2 years for the SNO and still nothing.
When all this transpires in SA, I very much doubt I want to be sailing on Telkom's ship anymore. On principle I will change my account to another company because of the shoddy service and rip off prices charged over the years.

<hr noshade size="1">You can take Telkom out of the Post Office but you can't take the Post Office out of Telkom.

VQuest · Mar 16, 2004

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by BTTB

On principle I will change my account to another company because of the shoddy service and rip off prices charged over the years.<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">

I totally agree - this is what I've said all along. The very moment there is a viable alternative to Telkom's service, I will change over - on principle.

In my business it is my policy to take care of my customers, no matter what. I would rather earn a slightly smaller profit and have happy clients. I certainly could not look in the mirror if I knew that I was ripping my clients off because there was no one else who could offer them the service.

So why does Telkom not see this? The time will come when we do have a choice and Telkom is either too stupid to see this or they feel if they can milk us for all we're worth now, then they don't have to worry about the future. Either way this policy is unbelievable. No matter what they say, there is absolutely no way to justify their pricing structure for ADSL. We won't even venture further and mention any of their other services.

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United we stand!
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BTTB · Mar 16, 2004

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">then they don't have to worry about the future.<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">

History keeps repeating itself and Telkom is no exception.
A poor business plan looking at today and not tomorrow unlike their moto that they proclaim. "Touch Tomorrow." These business principles will still come back to haunt Telkom and nobody will ever trust them in the market place. They do not behave like a listed company as far as service delivery is concerned. More like fossils from the past.
It's just sad to see your countries assets like Telkom been used against us to make profit and nothing else.

<hr noshade size="1">You can take Telkom out of the Post Office but you can't take the Post Office out of Telkom.

Strobemeister · Mar 16, 2004

Well, i just wanted to add my name to this thread. All the bases have been covered. I can't see how anyone can be happy with the shoddy reply. It smacks of dismissiveness. Very poor form. I hope ICASA have the cahones to take this all the way.

Telkom - South Africa's Handbrake to progress.

martin · Mar 17, 2004

I just thought of something. Should ICASA not be investigating our claims instead of just pressuring Telkom for a response? At the moment they're just acting as a go-between and not a regulator or am I missing something?

VQuest · Mar 17, 2004

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by martin
 I just thought of something. Should ICASA not be investigating our claims instead of just pressuring Telkom for a response? At the moment they're just acting as a go-between and not a regulator or am I missing something?
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">

I also presumed they would be doing an investigation. Well, I certainly hope so, or there would be no point in us contacting ICASA. With the "mis-information" coming out of Telkom, they have proved they can't be trusted. So lets hope we can rely on ICASA to do the right thing.

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United we stand!
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