3rd Degree - Sterilization

[PeterCH]

How do you reach that conclusion ?, the world is running on low and it is getting lower by the day.

Most arable land is not used for agriculture. There is mass urbanisation and farmers are finding it more and more difficult to stay competitive in the farming business. In Europe subsidies for farmers are coming down. Food usually gets wasted or dumped in industrialised countries.

There is plenty of land - eg in Russia, ex-Soviet Republics, America, Africa etc which can provide for multiples of our current population.

So we have plenty of food and we could have more. Right now there is too much food and so it's pretty cheap.
There is plenty of land we could use to grow more food and raise more livestock.

 

[trinityEon]

What are you smoking? Last time I checked I wasn't a government. You want me to socially engineer SA's society alone?

Whatever criteria you sat- anything mandatory which modifies people's bodies is wrong. You could give tax cuts for smaller families (irrespective of how people achieve that) if you will, but any forced tubal ligation or vasectomy is a bad idea. You can offer free family planning services too - but to force people to make use of surgical methods of sterilization is wrong from a moral/ethical POV.

You not obligated to do it alone, you can recruit as many people as you can...Well you certainly say you have the proper solution then, you dont need to be government, since you say you know what the country needs, you can start your own initiative to try and make a difference instead of just running down good ideas posted on this thread for insignificant reasons, and totally against what we saying which definitely can be proven to work. Here is your opportunity, what are you afraid of?

Are you afraid that you know that the people will not listen to you, when you tell them please dont have sex, and overpopulate the country. I can see millions of children and people laughing you out even just trying to do it.

Tax cuts will never work efficiently because people will pay it and just think its another 'thing' we have to pay to the govt, rather tax free, besides do you know of our government to give tax breaks for anything good? they love money, and the more they make of it the happier they are. Family planning has been tried and offered, but really now does anybody see it making a difference?

According to what you say: when i murder or rape someone, and i am convicted of those crimes, then the law, you or anybody should not have the right to put me in prison as well, because you are restricting me just as much as any surgery would. I still say you do have a choice you are not forced, if you choose to rape murder and make babies knowing you are infected with HIV, but cannot sustain and provide for them legally, then by all means the choice has been made by you where you must know the consequences of your actions that you have to be sterilized... Is murder, rape, inflicting disease upon population intentionally not moral?
Corporations on a daily basis pollute the world and the air that everyone breathes, causing diseases and premature death, yet they getting away with it, is this moral? is it moral because money is to be made from it?
Then why so are dogs and animals that do nothing, given no choice when they are forced to be sterilized when the mobile SPCA goes about vaccinating... this is immoral, as they have done nothing wrong. again double standards you have. You never defined Humanity, as i asked before, i doubt you going to define being civilized, because you know the truth.

I will buy an animal food or donate to them(not the SPCA, but FORA) any day before i ever give a donation for another human, no matter what, because everyone is quick to raise funds and beg for donations for humans but animals are always forgotten. Animals dont even need money, they can fend food for themselves(society will not allow them to hunt for their own food), all animals need is love and respect, and you will see the world of a difference they will make to your life

Most arable land is not used for agriculture. There is mass urbanisation and farmers are finding it more and more difficult to stay competitive in the farming business. In Europe subsidies for farmers are coming down. Food usually gets wasted or dumped in industrialised countries.

There is plenty of land - eg in Russia, ex-Soviet Republics, America, Africa etc which can provide for multiples of our current population.

So we have plenty of food and we could have more. Right now there is too much food and so it's pretty cheap.
There is plenty of land we could use to grow more food and raise more livestock.

If this is so, and according to what you are stating in this forum, about who gets to choose who gets sterilized, then my equivalent question to you is, what gives the farmers, businesses and people the right to claim the land as theirs, they never made the ground that is there, they are using nature, no matter what you do you cannot run away from nature, Nature is the bigger power and should be respected, even more so than humans.

We all know that when nature gets angry and nature strikes back, no amount of research or money is going to save us then. this is proven by the natural disasters, they are warnings not to mess with nature, but do people like you listen? No you feel that humans are the most superior beings, they have the ultimate power called a brain with two thumbs, monkeys have thumbs too, most animals have a fifth growth on their forequarters where a thumb is usually, Most creatures have brains too, or else they would not survive or know what to do (instinct).

If there was a power failure tomorrow, then everybody goes on about how bad eskom is, and life comes to a grinding halt, and the hunt for generators starts up, look at villages in India, and China, where if there is a power failure, they dont care, their life still carries on, because they live in harmony with nature

The only way the world will ever be saved is by destroying the economy worldwide, hit the big economy kill switch, or wipe every economic hard drive, and paper trail, and start measuring peoples wealth by the amount of good they do.

Humans do waste alot, look around it is a proven fact. have you ever seen nature wasting anything? everything has a cycle, and serves a purpose, hence the balance.

 

[PeterCH]

You not obligated to do it alone, you can recruit as many people as you can...Well you certainly say you have the proper solution then, you dont need to be government, since you say you know what the country needs, you can start your own initiative to try and make a difference instead of just running down good ideas posted on this thread for insignificant reasons, and totally against what we saying which definitely can be proven to work. Here is your opportunity, what are you afraid of?

Are you afraid that you know that the people will not listen to you, when you tell them please dont have sex, and overpopulate the country. I can see millions of children and people laughing you out even just trying to do it.

Tax cuts will never work efficiently because people will pay it and just think its another 'thing' we have to pay to the govt, rather tax free, besides do you know of our government to give tax breaks for anything good? they love money, and the more they make of it the happier they are. Family planning has been tried and offered, but really now does anybody see it making a difference?

According to what you say: when i murder or rape someone, and i am convicted of those crimes, then the law, you or anybody should not have the right to put me in prison as well, because you are restricting me just as much as any surgery would. I still say you do have a choice you are not forced, if you choose to rape murder and make babies knowing you are infected with HIV, but cannot sustain and provide for them legally, then by all means you choice has been made by you where you must know that you have to be sterilized... Is murder, rape, inflicting disease upon population intentionally not moral? then why so are dogs and animals that do nothing, given no choice when they are forced to be sterilized when the mobile SPCA goes about vaccinating... this is immoral, as they have done nothing wrong. again double standards you have. You never defined Humanity, as i asked before, i doubt you going to define being civilized, because you know the truth.



If this is so, and according to what you are stating in this forum, about who gets to choose who gets sterilized, then my equivalent question to you is, what gives the farmers, businesses and people the right to claim the land as theirs, they never made the ground that is there, they are using nature, no matter what you do you cannot run away from nature, Nature is the bigger power and should be respected, even more so than humans.

We all know that when nature gets angry and nature strikes back, no amount of research or money is going to save us then. this is proven by the natural disasters, they are warnings not to mess with nature, but do people like you listen? No you feel that humans are the most superior beings, they have the ultimate power called a brain with two thumbs, monkeys have thumbs too, most animals have a fifth growth on their forequarters where a thumb is usually, Most creatures have brains too, or else they would not survive or know what to do (instinct).

If there was a power failure tomorrow, then everybody goes on about how bad eskom is, and life comes to a grinding halt, and the hunt for generators starts up, look at villages in India, and China, where if there is a power failure, they dont care, their life still carries on, because they live in harmony with nature

The only way the world will ever be saved is by destroying the economy worldwide, hit the big economy kill switch, or wipe every economic hard drive, and paper trail, and start measuring peoples wealth by the amount of good they do.

Humans do waste alot, look around it is a proven fact. have you ever seen nature wasting anything? everything has a cycle, and serves a purpose, hence the balance.

Sure, I'm gonna need some money first. How about you provide me with several Billion US and then we'll talk?

 

[trinityEon]

Sure, I'm gonna need some money first. How about you provide me with several Billion US and then we'll talk?

You are the one that proposed that wealth will solve the problem, it is your solution, prove it, even if you have to do it on a small scale, where you target a small poor community and school, surely you dont need billions of US for that, you love the idea of money, lets see how it works for you. It will cost you nothing to go to one of these communities and talk to them, see if they listen according to your suggestion, surely that cannot cost several Billion US just take a drive there, in fact a bicycle will even get you there for free

Remember my case states that money should be completely removed from society, everyone starts from scratch, you propose money you bring it to the table

Lets see you being proactive for a change instead of knocking other peoples good suggestions down for silly reasons like humans are superior, we have big brains, with two thumbs, and humans never hurt anything in the world, etc

 

[Phenom]

It is wrong, it is a violation of ones own property. Forced abortions will however, be absolutely necessary, as with all cases where the child would be born ill or the mother not be able to rare the child to adolescence .

What if we find a total cure for AIDS 5 years from now, and you were that lady infected with the disease, and you were a responsible person, would you have thought it fair if you were too sterilized? And yes, it would be a good idea to recommend this to the patient.

 

[PeterCH]

You are the one that proposed that wealth will solve the problem, it is your solution, prove it, even if you have to do it on a small scale, where you target a small poor community and school, surely you dont need billions of US for that, you love the idea of money, lets see how it works for you. It will cost you nothing to go to one of these communities and talk to them, see if they listen according to your suggestion, surely that cannot cost several Billion US just take a drive there, in fact a bicycle will even get you there for free

Remember my case states that money should be completely removed from society, everyone starts from scratch, you propose money you bring it to the table

Lets see you being proactive for a change instead of knocking other peoples good suggestions down for silly reasons like humans are superior, we have big brains, with two thumbs, and humans never hurt anything in the world, etc

I only replied that way because your post was so full of nonsense there was just nothing else to say.

What you say is nonsense. Prove something? I can prove it now - look at Europe for example. Look at the richer people in SA. Small families are the rule. Look at Europe a 100-200 years ago - pick up a Charles Dicken's novel and see how many children people had then. What was the average education, wealth and access to services then and now? My way works. Your way can be exemplified by the Khmer Rouge policies in Kampuchea - see what happened to them.

LOL.

 

[PeterCH]

Forced abortions will however, be absolutely necessary,

You must be a follower of Adolf Hitler.

 

[Phenom]

You must be a follower of Adolf Hitler.

I am not a follower of Adolf Hitler. And nothing you say or could say could justify me as one.

For what reason(/motive) is it that you think so?

 

[PeterCH]

I am not a follower of Adolf Hitler. And nothing you say or could say could justify me as one.

For what reason(/motive) is it that you think so?

To want to dictate to people what they do with their bodies so. "Forced abortions will be necessary".

Were they necessary in Europe? USA? Canada? Japan? Yeah the last civilised country to have those was - guess which one - Germany right until 1945.

Forced abortions are never necessary. Forcing things on people is wrong. Understand this - this is key to mutual tolerance and respect. This is what makes us good.

 

[Phenom]

To want to dictate to people what they do with their bodies so. "Forced abortions will be necessary".

A child is not the PROPERTY of a parent, so no it's not part of 'their own bodies'.

Were they necessary in Europe? USA? Canada? Japan? Yeah the last civilized country to have those was - guess which one - Germany right until 1945.

The entire functional world.

Forced abortions are never necessary. Forcing things on people is wrong. Understand this - this is key to mutual tolerance and respect. This is what makes us good.

You force people to pay parking fines don't you? You force people to not take the property of others, you force people to make sure that they can drive before they ride on the road, don't you?

This is just another one of these cases, people should be forced to be responsible and respect the property of others, else there is no rights to begin with.

Difference where I agree, is that people should not be forced to do anything that doesn't solely concern themselves (which is why i oppose sterilisations), however when it is made to concern others, it is completely open to debate.

 

[PeterCH]

A child is not the PROPERTY of a parant, so no it's not 'their own bodies'.
The entire functional world.You force people to pay parking fines don't you? You force people to not take the property of others, you force people to make sure that they can drive before they ride on the road, don't you?

This is just another one of these cases, people should be forced to be responsible and respect the property of others, else there is no rights to begin with.

Difference where I agree, is that people should not be forced to do anything that doesn't only concern themselves (which is why i oppose sterilisations), however when it is made to concern others, it is completely open to debate.

We're dealing with human rights here - not parking fines. People should have every right to be themselves as long as they don't violate others' rights. You could argue that street beggars violate your rights (all those unwanted children) but solutions to that are possible - eg put them in school (even by law).

 

[Phenom]

We're dealing with human rights here - not parking fines.

Absolutely it does, my analogy is completely relevant. Parking fines deals with human rights too. Imagine a world without parking fines, imagine a truck parking in the middle of the N1 and you can't find a way around it, everyday the truck driver does this, he likes the view.

People should have every right to be themselves as long as they don't violate others' rights.

Yes, And here giving birth would mean that the child's (if the fetus was to become one) rights would be violated. Every child deserves to be raised in safety, to a state wjere they are able to stand on their own feet, to be able to achieve their full potential and be able to contribute back to the society that rared it too. Every parant should be responsible for these rights, and if the parant at least intrincically fails to be able to achieve this, then the parant should not be allowed to have a child to begin with, in due to the child and the society that has to pay for the child too.

You could argue that street beggars violate your rights (all those unwanted children) but solutions to that are possible - eg put them in school (even by law).

Street beggars don't violate my rights, their parents do.

 

[Phenom]

There is plenty of land - eg in Russia, ex-Soviet Republics, America, Africa etc which can provide for multiples of our current population.

As in how, a billion peole arelady living in extreme poverty? Is that not enough, actually far too much already?
#2 Really, what is the first priority, more people or more improvement?
What about the HUGE gap in skills that is ever increasing? What if your neighbor has the knowleadge and skill to create a deadly virus to wipeout the town, yet nobody in the town could find the cure to the virus? would the future become some kind of resident evil rat race? shouldn't we first conquest knowledge and development first? is so much dispersion healthy?

Isn't it in the nature of humanity to be progressive?

It is both infeasible to allow the current system to continue, and it is inhumane to do so too. We seek what is better and better is what is better to seek (unless your a sadomasochist). Therefor we should not simply seek the solution that is sustainable and as here clearly it's not, we should also seek the solution that brings us the best and respects everyones rights in the process too.

 

[trinityEon]

It is wrong, it is a violation of ones own property. Forced abortions will however, be absolutely necessary, as with all cases where the child would be born ill or the mother not be able to rare the child to adolescence .

What if we find a total cure for AIDS 5 years from now, and you were that lady infected with the disease, and you were a responsible person, would you have thought it fair if you were too sterilized? And yes, it would be a good idea to recommend this to the patient.

Then why is it accepted for the SPCA to go around sterilizing dogs, and putting down strays, is that not a violation of their property? In nature if a child was born ill, or the mother not be able to rare the child to adolescence, then most certainly it would become feed for another, or even survive if it was strong enough.

If we did find a cure for aids that would be really bad, because nature would bring something far worst than aids, If i were infected i would gladly accept my fate with dignity, and die a noble death, if i were not able to bring a child into this world i would gladly accept the fact that i would need to be sterilized

I only replied that way because your post was so full of nonsense there was just nothing else to say.

What you say is nonsense. Prove something? I can prove it now - look at Europe for example. Look at the richer people in SA. Small families are the rule. Look at Europe a 100-200 years ago - pick up a Charles Dicken's novel and see how many children people had then. What was the average education, wealth and access to services then and now? My way works. Your way can be exemplified by the Khmer Rouge policies in Kampuchea - see what happened to them.

LOL.

You only claim what i say is nonsense, because you only considering yourself and your comfortable lifestyle, you fear losing all you have worked for, If you own any animal, take a look at them and see how much they achieved, nothing obviously, but are they happy and content with the love you give them?, If you want to prove something then prove that your welfare and education will work, i can at least guarantee you that what i say will work, as harsh as it may seem it will definitely work.
Back then there was a need to have lots of children because workers were needed to work in the fields, now it has just become a mess.

You cannot compare this to hitler, as he was pure out racist, this is not racist, it targets everyone that cannot sustain having children

If you look at what humans have done to this planet, then do you honestly think humans should ever deserve any rights? I think not, we are certainly not responsible enough, Humans are having such a hard time caring for themselves and their economy, they do not care for other life.

To want to dictate to people what they do with their bodies so. "Forced abortions will be necessary".

Were they necessary in Europe? USA? Canada? Japan? Yeah the last civilised country to have those was - guess which one - Germany right until 1945.

Forced abortions are never necessary. Forcing things on people is wrong. Understand this - this is key to mutual tolerance and respect. This is what makes us good.

Whether you like it or not dictation is happening without people like you even realizing it, You are forced to work, so that you can pay for your house, and car, and everything you want in life, How many people do you know that are really free from modern economy related lifestyles? One cannot decide he wants to build a small house in a tree somewhere, and live with nature, one would need money for this, it is really difficult to live off the grid, if even possible, very few people know how to hunt and survive in Nature, most people wont know where to start, the only people that know this is the poor in the rural areas not affected by western life

We're dealing with human rights here - not parking fines. People should have every right to be themselves as long as they don't violate others' rights. You could argue that street beggars violate your rights (all those unwanted children) but solutions to that are possible - eg put them in school (even by law).

Again Humans dont deserve special rights, every living species on this earth should have equal rights, what you are saying is similar to racism, only amongst the different species, it is no different from the apartheid this country fought for, only difference is that when the animals speak to us we as brilliant as we are, do not understand what they are telling us, even if we do, it is not taken seriously.

Better solutions to beggars seem to be to put them down, because thats what the SPCA does, and thats totally humane, because i know the solutions you propose and it has been shown time and time again on 3rd degree, that they run back to the streets

 

[sister]

if it is legally possible to prosecute an HIV+ person who intentionally infect someone else, then why should it not be legal to sterilize HIV+ people?

why should people who are HIV+ be protected by privacy laws? some of them breed non stop and what chances do their children have? a good chance at being orphaned at a young age and to live on the streets seem like their best chance in live. :twisted:

don't get me wrong though. i have empathy for someone carrying the HI virus. but why should their rights have preference to the rights of others, including their (future) children?

 

[trinityEon]

if it is legally possible to prosecute an HIV+ person who intentionally infect someone else, then why should it not be legal to sterilize HIV+ people?

why should people who are HIV+ be protected by privacy laws? some of them breed non stop and what chances do their children have? a good chance at being orphaned at a young age and to live on the streets seem like their best chance in live. :twisted:

don't get me wrong though. i have empathy for someone carrying the HI virus. but why should their rights have preference to the rights of others, including their (future) children?

Well said, i couldn't have said that better myself Agree totally

 

[Lightscribe]

Yes, they do... I have been to a Doctors graduation ceremony.

Apologies. I remembered info from Wouter Basson interviews. I did a quick search http://www.mylocal.co.za/google/search?hl=en&q=wouter+basson+hippocratic+oath&cr=countryZA

And found similar reference.

DR ORR: When you graduated did you take any oaths, the Hippocratic Oath or the Declaration of Geneva or anything like that?

DR MIJBURGH: No we didn't.

DR ORR: Is that not done at the University of Pretoria?

DR MIJBURGH: It wasn't in my time. I believe they are doing it nowadays.

http://www.justice.gov.za/trc/special/cbw/cbw16.htm

I only replied that way because your post was so full of nonsense there was just nothing else to say.

What you say is nonsense. Prove something? I can prove it now - look at Europe for example. Look at the richer people in SA. Small families are the rule. Look at Europe a 100-200 years ago - pick up a Charles Dicken's novel and see how many children people had then. What was the average education, wealth and access to services then and now? My way works. Your way can be exemplified by the Khmer Rouge policies in Kampuchea - see what happened to them.

LOL.

Thanks Peter. Saved me some typing.

@ trinityEon ..."The more you know, the more you will realise, how little you know." Tone down the attitude. Lest we start calling you rooster...

 

[Phenom]

And excuse me if this paragraph causes confusion, i did not have enough time to articulate it the way it should be articulated, so im just going to type from the top of my mind, please excuse and enquire about any misunderstandings.

Then why is it accepted for the SPCA to go around sterilizing dogs, and putting down strays, is that not a violation of their property? In nature if a child was born ill, or the mother not be able to rare the child to adolescence, then most certainly it would become feed for another, or even survive if it was strong enough.

Because they aren't civilised animals capable of responsibility, and no they don't have a language system so they likely don't 'plan' on having children, they just do 'it'.

If we did find a cure for aids that would be really bad, because nature would bring something far worst than aids,

next time you get sick, please don't go to the docrather die, you'll save some plants ? Funny but that's what it sounds like your saying.

But yes, i may respect how you may have seen it this way. Problem is not to do with the technology but with how the politics deals with it. It obviously takes a great deal of seriousness to make a new medicine, working with such a science can't tollerate any kind of ignorance, one has to mix the chemicals the way one would scientifically deduce, and thus it would lead to the cure. The same principle applys to everything, however politicians are usually more concerned with religion or traditions rather than the truth of the matter, and this is why the disconnect spills this way. Both fields aren't developing in unison, mother nature also requires something of the same, all species should develop in unison to suit and fit into their environment, sae is not happening here. Politicians aren't tied to being responsible, they are just puppets, it's still(erhaps we'll have a better system in the future) up to the public to find the tracks of logic to steer the train forward.

Politicians have more respect for the bigoted traditional institutions than they do for the truth and the science behind their work.

The world has to develop and brining new medicines is what development is there for, it is also strange for one to blame a solution for there not being solutions. We want development for better medicines, and thus one can't blame medicines for lack of development at the same time.

If i were infected i would gladly accept my fate with dignity, and die a noble death, if i were not able to bring a child into this world i would gladly accept the fact that i would need to be sterilized

I would not, why should i pay for somebody else being irresponsible? I am not effecting anyone else and therefor you can't blame me and say that it is just that this happens to me. Same as one wouln't cut off a hand so that a person won't steal.

 

[sister]

Phenom, you make some very valid points. the issues is very complex, hence one should not expect easy answers.

i agree that sterilization of animals and human beings are not in the same category because human beings have intellect and can discern between what is right and wrong. pets breed simply because they can and because it is in their nature.

from a legal perspective i think that this issue of sterilizing HIV+ people may create a grey area in the law. if an HIV+ person intentionally infects another person, this could be regarded as "attempted murder". would this not have implications when an HIV+ person - while knowing her HIV status - falls pregnant and give birth to an HIV+ baby? can this child, in later life, sue the parent/s for infecting him (or her)?

i don't know if this is possible or would be a possibility?

 

[Phenom]

from a legal perspective i think that this issue of sterilizing HIV+ people may create a grey area in the law. if an HIV+ person intentionally infects another person, this could be regarded as "attempted murder". would this not have implications when an HIV+ person - while knowing her HIV status - falls pregnant and give birth to an HIV+ baby? can this child, in later life, sue the parent/s for infecting him (or her)?

i don't know if this is possible or would be a possibility?

Yes, it is, this is why i believe in forced abortions instead. With forced abortions the action is made on the crime(excuse me if it's a rape) and could be solved before the fetus becomes a child.