Aborting a child with birth defects?

[Carol35]

How do you decide which abnormalities you can live with and which not?

yes, is this even possible to decide? In fact, Im quite surprised how many people have mentioned Downs in this thread when a lot of people with Downs do have meaningful lives and a lot of parents are more than willing to support them. My first thought in this thread was more along the lines of Cerebral Palsy, spina bifida, children who will never be able to live ANY kind of independent life, reliant on an adult for their most basic human functions, unable to speak, walk etc kwim?

And I might as well admit it, I simply would not be a good mother to a needy child. I wouldn't have the patience. I actually enjoy my children now more than ever as they are not so needy on me to do everything for them. And dare I say it, I do notice the irony in the fact that the needy child I did birth, was the one I couldn't keep! Universe is funny like that!

 

[Saltex]

yes, is this even possible to decide? In fact, Im quite surprised how many people have mentioned Downs in this thread when a lot of people with Downs do have meaningful lives and a lot of parents are more than willing to support them. My first thought in this thread was more along the lines of Cerebral Palsy, spina bifida, children who will never be able to live ANY kind of independent life, reliant on an adult for their most basic human functions, unable to speak, walk etc kwim?

And I might as well admit it, I simply would not be a good mother to a needy child. I wouldn't have the patience. I actually enjoy my children now more than ever as they are not so needy on me to do everything for them. And dare I say it, I do notice the irony in the fact that the needy child I did birth, was the one I couldn't keep! Universe is funny like that!

Well can a downs ever live an independent life? In my experience it is pretty much like having a 6-8 year old to look after for pretty much the rest of your life, yes he has crushes on a girl, but do you know how sad it is to actually look at him and think his never going to have that experience of a relationship, sexually etc. I think you would have to live with it for 2 weeks or whatever to be able to decide, you can even see the frustration in my brother when you struggle to understand him.

 

[rubytox]

I am glad you understand it is much more than only a matter of "nature" and therefore you cannot abort a child on such absurd grounds.

I am not pro or against abortion. It depends on the circumstances.
It is easy to judge other people when they decide on terminating a pregnancy for whatever reason.

I asked a hypothetical question: if or when science can predetermine psychopathy, would/should abortion then be an option?

 

[Carol35]

Well can a downs ever live an independent life? In my experience it is pretty much like having a 6-8 year old to look after for pretty much the rest of your life, yes he has crushes on a girl, but do you know how sad it is to actually look at him and think his never going to have that experience of a relationship, sexually etc. I think you would have to live with it for 2 weeks or whatever to be able to decide, you can even see the frustration in my brother when you struggle to understand him.

No Saltex, I hear you and do get it. It's incredibly sad. I just pointed out that when birth defect was mentioned, Downs was immediately associated with the term when there are more severe forms of disablement kwim? I personally myself, would not walk the Downs road but alot of people do. By independent and meaningful, I meant that alot of downs people do form friendships, relationships, do stuff, can dress themselves etc etc but I guess that's also dependant on the severity of their syndrome. It must be a huge worry to your folks and you regarding your brothers future! I'm guessing many years ago, in your moms case and Celeste, there were no prenatal tests and parents had no choices...making it even more difficult to prepare a future for these children born.

 

[HapticSimian]

No innocent human being of whatever age, no matter how deformed, retarded, damaged or ill, can or should be "terminated" or intentionally killed. Abortion intentionally kills. It is always and everywhere profoundly wrong and deeply regrettable.

Of course I realise the some cases are extremely vexatious. Ordinary human compassion should provoke us all into supporting those who face these awful and life-defining dilemmas.

We've been through this once before, so I won't be drawn into a lengthy conversation, but I still find this stance utterly perplexing. Taking into account that you would necessarily define a completely anencephalic foetus as an 'innocent human being', you'd honestly see such a thing carried full term rather than seeing a woman's emotions and body spared to some degree?

I cannot comprehend it, frankly. Perhaps your recognition of it being a dilemma shows that you do perceive the existence of some distinction. Poorly defined, perhaps, but I don't see your unwavering position helping any.

 

[D3nz]

I first met a person with down's syndrome when I was 19. He was 18...should have been having the best time of his life, like I was. Instead he was holding on to his mother's hand while she wiped up his drool with the towel she had attached to his shirt. Never would I want this for my child!

Down's syndrome symptoms can be mild to moderate to severe. Unfortunately, no test can determine the severity in an unborn foetus. I have two perfectly normal children. If either of them had had downs, they would still be the most precious things in the world to me, but, if I was aware that they had downs before they were born, I would have had an abortion. I LOVE children, but I would never willingly bring a Down's child into this world.

 

[Arthur]

HapticS, yeah, there are several very long mybb threads whirring around on a disk somewhere. I agree with you - there's little to be gained by another iteration of the same arguments. Besides, I'm on a phone and can't type much with one finger.

This is a complex question, freighted with larger issues. Rightly so, in my view, because it's literally a life-and-death matter.

Without trying to draw you, it seems to me that one cannot arrive at a rational (as opposed to sentimental) position on this topic without first identifying some basic philosophical and especially anthropological positions and their implications.

I fully grant you that few issues are more vexing, and no decision is easy or lightly taken.

I've thought long and hard about this very issue for decades, and have had to deal with it several times in a personal and not just theoretical way.

Perhaps the two most basic questions any serious examiner needs to consider and decide are:

1. What is a human being exactly? This includes subsidiary Qs such as When does one start being human, and When does one cease being human? Is one's humanity and the rights (if any) that flow from it, a social construct, and therefore susceptible of and subordinate to social redefinition or even termination? Or does one hold rights natively, independent of any socially-defined rights regime?

2. Is it morally licit for any human being to intentionally kill another human being who has not initiated force or the threat of force?

The answers to these questions have profound implications not just in the immediate abortion debate, but in almost every aspect of human social living ... economics, war, politics, crime, families, children, etc, etc.

My own position is unequivocal and clear. I have made my decisions, and accept the implications, and also the responsibilities they imply, which is why I do what I can to support those women and their children who face the awful dilemmas that can lead to abortion.

 

[noxibox]

For all the whinging about abortion, people forget that it wasn't that long ago that children with defects, physical or mental, would just be routinely dumped into unpleasant institutions and left to rot.

How do you decide which abnormalities you can live with and which not?

Preference and what I know I can or am willing to cope with if I know in advance.

 

[HapticSimian]

/snip

Without wanting to trivialise what you've seen and experienced, your response just seems a desperate ploy to bury an untenable position in as much ambiguity as possible, if I'm honest. Keeping things (comparatively) simple, I'd approach the matter from the apparent opposite end: I've still not seen a satisfactory answer as to why one would seek to keep something like the aforementioned fully anencephalic foetus alive. It will not be viable; it will die.

The only coherent argument I can imagine would be to say that such is the unfortunate consequence of the stance you take. Coherent, yes, but still a poor rationalisation for acting in direct opposition to the only possibly surviving parties' interests.

Even after decades spent pondering a topic... one can still be wrong.

 

[Arthur]

For all the whinging about abortion, people forget that it wasn't that long ago that children with defects, physical or mental, would just be routinely dumped into unpleasant institutions and left to rot.

Yes. Horrible indeed.

But is also true that many, many parents rose to the challenge so unexpectedly and painfully dealt them and lovingly and devotedly raised their children in the best way they could. They are heroes and heroines.

 

[noxibox]

I am not pro or against abortion. It depends on the circumstances.
It is easy to judge other people when they decide on terminating a pregnancy for whatever reason.

I asked a hypothetical question: if or when science can predetermine psychopathy, would/should abortion then be an option?

You mean if it can only be determined after the cut-off dates? Currently up to 12 weeks it is, effectively, no questions asked. Up to 24 weeks for various deformities. And after that usually only for things like a threat to the mother's life.

I'm guessing many years ago, in your moms case and Celeste, there were no prenatal tests and parents had no choices...making it even more difficult to prepare a future for these children born.

There was still a choice, you didn't have to keep the child.

We've been through this once before, so I won't be drawn into a lengthy conversation, but I still find this stance utterly perplexing. Taking into account that you would necessarily define a completely anencephalic foetus as an 'innocent human being', you'd honestly see such a thing carried full term rather than seeing a woman's emotions and body spared to some degree?

The true hardliners don't really give a hoot about the woman.

 

[Carol35]

Sorry Noxi, by choice I meant the option to persue the pregnacy. By not having to keep it, you mean by putting them into homes etc, in my mind, that's not really a choice but more a necessity when the parents feel unable to carry the burden of a disabled child. I can only imagine how traumatic and hurtful having to do that must be, never being able to move on. Realistically, the are very few Arthurs in this world.

 

[Celine]

You had a Down Syndrome child?

Anyway, I'd propose to my SO to terminate.

yes - my son passed away at the age of 21. he passed away in his sleep. it was thought that he contracted pneumonia, he had the flu at the time and it might have gone to his chest. i didn't have an autopsy done, i just thought it was pointless. he had had pneumonia so many times in his life that this might have been the one that dealt the final blow.

 

[Celine]

And that's why in the main it's pretty easy to make a decision if an abnormality is picked up. prenatal. If we are presented with a potential burden of serious and crippling financial special needs not all the love in the world is going to help . That's the reality check. But some will bring damaged people into the world regardless and hope for miracles.

i actually made my decision based on how my life revolved around my child at the time. i thought everything i did would solve all the problems he had. so my day would start at 5 in the morning, i would go to work, get home around 5 in the afternoon and then i didn't rest from there. i would start my afternoon and night shift with my child. continually doing physio on him as per all these so called professionals who gave me advise. i would get to bed at about 1 in the morning. and so my days would continue like this until he was 8 years old and i saw absolutely no progress. it was only then that i realised that he was severely brain damaged as well. i found a wonderful home to place him in but it cost me huge money. but i'm not sorry in any way.

 

[Celine]

Well can a downs ever live an independent life? In my experience it is pretty much like having a 6-8 year old to look after for pretty much the rest of your life, yes he has crushes on a girl, but do you know how sad it is to actually look at him and think his never going to have that experience of a relationship, sexually etc. I think you would have to live with it for 2 weeks or whatever to be able to decide, you can even see the frustration in my brother when you struggle to understand him.

the sad fact is that most cases of down's children are born to couples who are older and these couples do start worrying what is going to happen to the child when they die. i don't think that many of these down's children are able to support themselves on their own and should the older parents die, what will happen to these children?

 

[Saltex]

the sad fact is that most cases of down's children are born to couples who are older and these couples do start worrying what is going to happen to the child when they die. i don't think that many of these down's children are able to support themselves on their own and should the older parents die, what will happen to these children?

They will go to these outstanding government homes we have here, where the government caretakes just love every single person individually.








please note the sarcasm

 

[Saltex]

And also usually the one's preaching about abortion is bad are usually the ones who have never had to face a good reason, and a perfect example of this is rape, your wife or daughter getting raped and getting pregnant, you tell me know youd say its cool to have a rapists child?

 

[Garson007]

Once you subordinate any particular human life (and its liberty) to utilitarian considerations or to the social good, everyone loses the very basis for claiming any rights against the State or society. That is indistinguishable from the very thing that makes slavery so execrable.

But a foetus isn't a developed human, whereas a slave is. I've gone through this many times, but my ethical model is logical consistent.

... and BTW, a psychopath's brain does not function the same as a normal person's brain. There is a biological difference.

http://www.kcl.ac.uk/iop/news/records/2012/May/The-antisocial-brain.aspx

That can still be nurture and not nature. Your body is heavily influenced by your early years, yes even your brain development. http://www.telegraph.co.uk/health/c...-the-difference-between-these-two-brains.html

It's obviously both, but genetics is more of a pre-disposition whereas the environment triggers them.

In any case I favour abortion, on any absurd grounds you might have. To be perfectly honest, I wouldn't have a child until such time that I'm familiar with my genome and have the ability to genetically engineer a child.

 

[Nerfherder]

We've been through this once before, so I won't be drawn into a lengthy conversation, but I still find this stance utterly perplexing. Taking into account that you would necessarily define a completely anencephalic foetus as an 'innocent human being', you'd honestly see such a thing carried full term rather than seeing a woman's emotions and body spared to some degree?

I cannot comprehend it, frankly. Perhaps your recognition of it being a dilemma shows that you do perceive the existence of some distinction. Poorly defined, perhaps, but I don't see your unwavering position helping any.

He sees death as a punishment and not as a relief.

Not worth the energy, the law in this country allows for real logic and real compassion so no need to debate anything else.

 

[Nicodeamus]

For all the whinging about abortion, people forget that it wasn't that long ago that children with defects, physical or mental, would just be routinely dumped into unpleasant institutions and left to rot.

I always try and support the Paul Jungnickel home in Pretoria and that is exactly what happens. You have cases where people with down syndrome have been living in those house for 40+ years and eventually the responsibility of the parents fall onto the normal children. Sure its okay for a parent to say that they will take care of the child, but if they die, then you impose that responsibility on his other siblings or on other people.

My parents aborted a child before they had me, he would have been born without his brain properly connected to his body. At the end of the day I don't see why you should ruin your life if you can prevent it.