when you get to pick and choose, it's easy to pick cases you know you will win.
But a good question anyway.
I think it is more an issue that the police is overworked, than the scorpions under worked.
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"Admit it, the Scorpions failed"
- Thread starter sox63
- Start date
I think it is more an issue that the police is overworked, than the scorpions under worked.
Well, if you take into account the purpose of the scorpions in the first place, I don't think so. They need to be separate in order to be effective. The chance of the police being corrupt is higher than a small group of men, working outside of the police system, so the corrupt part are not able to view any material that might give the criminal element an advantage.
By making them part of the police, they become just another police department, and will eventually fall pry to corruption. They have already lost a good deal of their senior people, whom have been respected enough to get jobs in the international arena.
I'm not too sure of the FBI story, but IIRC they investigate all crimes, if they happen of federal property, or a crime is committed in one US state, and the people flee to another state, it then becomes a federal case.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/FBI
Ah ok, thanks sox 
I personally feel that if they are allowed (and not forcibly discouraged) from investigating the corrupt people in the Executive then it doesnt matter where they are (it would be better if they were not accountable or answerable to the Executive - that way they would remain unhindered as much as possible in their investigations). But I am not an expert on the scorpions or their function so it is just an uneducated opinion.
I personally feel that if they are allowed (and not forcibly discouraged) from investigating the corrupt people in the Executive then it doesnt matter where they are (it would be better if they were not accountable or answerable to the Executive - that way they would remain unhindered as much as possible in their investigations). But I am not an expert on the scorpions or their function so it is just an uneducated opinion.
gpe
Senior Member
The DSO (Directorate of Special Operations) aka: the Scorpions disbanded to a new police unit DCPI (Directorate of Priority Crime Investigation) which the SAPS will have complete control over (police commissioner) ... selecting DCPI investigators, funding the DCPI, and supervising. Once again centralizing the SAPS powers 
The Scorpions made nearly 2000 arrests, completed over 1300 investigations and seized more than R1 billion worth of goods .. not to mention a conviction rate of 92% compared to the SAPS's dismal 10%
Centralizing IMO is the worst thing you can do when it comes to dealing with crime .. and that alone made the Scorpions a success! Never mind their conviction rate!
The Scorpions made nearly 2000 arrests, completed over 1300 investigations and seized more than R1 billion worth of goods .. not to mention a conviction rate of 92% compared to the SAPS's dismal 10%
Centralizing IMO is the worst thing you can do when it comes to dealing with crime .. and that alone made the Scorpions a success! Never mind their conviction rate!
You got nothing to compare the scorpions to so if they were successful or not is not an argument as you could always argue anything really.The fact is for not being a private company they are very successful,and nothing runs perfectly in this world and even coke(the drink) can improve.So if you arguing that resources could be allocated more efficintly to DSO or by DSO then you fooling your self as no government of any country in the world allocates resources 100% effienctly.The point is the DSO was one step better than nothing and a step in right direction at least.
when you get to pick and choose, it's easy to pick cases you know you will win.
But a good question anyway.
'Picking' cases you know you will win is called being efficient and smart. Why pursue a case if you aren't ready for and thus guaranteed a conviction? Better to sit on it and gather more evidence.
China treats corruption in the government as treason and punishable by hanging. Now, I don't condone or agree with China's willingness to hang people but their concept is correct in my mind; corruption committed by a governmental official is the same as treason or an assault upon the nation itself.
Which would you consider to be worse:
An enemy stabbing you in the back
Or
A 'friend' stabbing you in the back
As to whether violent crimes or corrupt governmental officials are more detrimental to our society, that is up for debate. You cannot clearly state what the money lost due to corruption could've accomplished nor what a non-corrupt official could've achieved in the time wasted by the corrupt one. Though violent crimes are more visible, do not discount the effect corruption can have on a country. Just as it can bring down entire companies(eg. Enron) , so too can it bring down a country if left to fester(ie JZ in power imo).
Violent crime is committed by the poor, who rich ANC officials have stolen from. If they don't address the root of the problem, small time criminals will continue to spring up and the ANC will continue making criminals of its supporters.
Ady
Expert Member
Point taken, but the Scorpions didn't just go after high profile poeple, i still think they did a good job. If the scorpions never opened up the high profile can of worms who else would have done it seen as some people appear to have had the police commissioner in their back pockets?
I thought the point of law enforcement was to investigate all cases that a person has laid (I said laid, and a nasty thought went through my mind
). And it will then be up to the appropriate Director of prosecutions to decide whether to prosecute.I was not arguing as to which type of crime is more important. But in all fairness, we as citizens are more likely to complain about the 50 murders a day, than whether Yengeni received a little too much discount on his ML.
To me, the one driving up my premiums is the violent crime. It is the reason a spend a lot on security, money which could have been spent elsewhere. As people have said on this very forum, violent crime is what keeps us awake at night, and IMO I would not be too disturbed knowing our countries best and brightest investigators are paying close attention to it, and then maybe conviction rates will go up. And criminals would be less willing to jack my car.
I thought the point of law enforcement was to investigate all cases that a person has laid (I said laid, and a nasty thought went through my mind
I was not arguing as to which type of crime is more important. But in all fairness, we as citizens are more likely to complain about the 50 murders a day, than whether Yengeni received a little too much discount on his ML.
To me, the one driving up my premiums is the violent crime. It is the reason a spend a lot on security, money which could have been spent elsewhere. As people have said on this very forum, violent crime is what keeps us awake at night, and IMO I would not be too disturbed knowing our countries best and brightest investigators are paying close attention to it, and then maybe conviction rates will go up. And criminals would be less willing to jack my car.
The 'S' in DSO stands for special and is there for a reason. If they had to handle every case they were given then they would be just like our normal police force. There purpose isn't to be 'super cops' doing what normal cops do but better. They are meant to tackle special cases which the SAPS cannot, such as going for corrupt police bosses or even future presidents. People who would otherwise be beyond the reach of justice.
I thought the point of law enforcement was to investigate all cases that a person has laid (I said laid, and a nasty thought went through my mind
I was not arguing as to which type of crime is more important. But in all fairness, we as citizens are more likely to complain about the 50 murders a day, than whether Yengeni received a little too much discount on his ML.
To me, the one driving up my premiums is the violent crime. It is the reason a spend a lot on security, money which could have been spent elsewhere. As people have said on this very forum, violent crime is what keeps us awake at night, and IMO I would not be too disturbed knowing our countries best and brightest investigators are paying close attention to it, and then maybe conviction rates will go up. And criminals would be less willing to jack my car.
And thats why we ned an efficient police force who also control the borders with the DSO adding some clout to complex crimes.The police cant keep up so how do you expect the scorpions who have less people to tackle violent crimes when the gov polocies allow whoever they want into this country..
Albereth
Honorary Master
The SAPS have an OC unit.
Turiko
Banned
If that had to be implemented here, I think 99,9% of the ANC government would end up on death row
I'm going to unscrew this thread and say the following:
The Scorpions have not failed- the reasons they are being "relocated, evicted, skopped-uit, etc", is because they did their job... too well in fact. They uncovered the fact (or have a substantial amount of evidence in fact) of the corruptness of Zuma and other corrupt ANC officials...
The Scorpions have not failed- the reasons they are being "relocated, evicted, skopped-uit, etc", is because they did their job... too well in fact. They uncovered the fact (or have a substantial amount of evidence in fact) of the corruptness of Zuma and other corrupt ANC officials...
KillerX
Expert Member
Oh is this the latest exscuse for disbanding the scorpions? Ive heard the ANC claim different reasons every month.
They have become to powerful
They are wielded politically
They will be more effective in the SAPS
Every week its a diff story. I watched 3rd degree with Debora patter interviewing some chief ANC members about this. She read out a list of the scorpions achievements. It was massive, i dunno how many hundreds of millions of rands seized, drugs seized, cases investigated AND succesfully prosecuted. And remember, all this from a very small unit. So YES the answer is the DID succeed in their mandate.
During that whole debate, the ANC could not actually provide a decent reason for disbanding the scorpions. They were dancing around it, talking crap most of the time, but couldnt come up with one. Its plain and simple, the ANC are a bunch of corrupt thugs, and they didnt realise that by creating an actual PROPER crime fighting unit, they themselves would be taken down. Strange how they are rushing to get this done before the zuma case, and before the next elections.
They have become to powerful
They are wielded politically
They will be more effective in the SAPS
Every week its a diff story. I watched 3rd degree with Debora patter interviewing some chief ANC members about this. She read out a list of the scorpions achievements. It was massive, i dunno how many hundreds of millions of rands seized, drugs seized, cases investigated AND succesfully prosecuted. And remember, all this from a very small unit. So YES the answer is the DID succeed in their mandate.
During that whole debate, the ANC could not actually provide a decent reason for disbanding the scorpions. They were dancing around it, talking crap most of the time, but couldnt come up with one. Its plain and simple, the ANC are a bunch of corrupt thugs, and they didnt realise that by creating an actual PROPER crime fighting unit, they themselves would be taken down. Strange how they are rushing to get this done before the zuma case, and before the next elections.
Back in university, we had a forensic auditor guest lecturer. He stated the 2 recurring elements he comes across consistently with regards to criminal acts by perpetrators is
1. The opportunity arise and
2. They know they can get away with it
Now think about that, regardless of the nature of the crime when you have a semi-lawless enviroment. In some countries, you always have some kind of law enforcement agencies independent from the mainstream police force.
1. The opportunity arise and
2. They know they can get away with it
Now think about that, regardless of the nature of the crime when you have a semi-lawless enviroment. In some countries, you always have some kind of law enforcement agencies independent from the mainstream police force.