"Admit it, the Scorpions failed"

[sox63]

Not wanting to derail the other thread about saving the Scorpions, I thought some "robust debate" (to borrow a term from the ANC), around the subject was needed to warm us up this morning.

The article/column/opinion above was printed a couple of weeks ago IIRC, and it certainly got me thinking, as to what we are "losing".

The DSO has not done the job that was its reason for existence: it has underperformed, it has divided rather than united, and it has left organised criminals as powerful as they were in 1999, write George Fivaz and Gibson Njenje

Now that is the opinion of two dudes that we can use as a basis for our discussion, they have put forward some points to try and substantiate their claims, but the initial questions they ask are:

Has the DSO done the job for which it was established?


Was it what the country needed to successfully combat a tsunami of organised and individual crimes ?


Will it, as part of the SAPS, be what the country needs now?

Then they go in to some history on the DSO, especially the resources:

In September 1999, the DSO was born. It was substantially better resourced than the SAPS detective branch:


Spending up to 50 times more on each case it concludes than the resources deployed by equivalent SAPS structures ;


Paying its DSO investigators up to 40% more than their SAPS detective counterparts (the national commissioner of police earns about the same as second-tier DSO management, and the head of the DSO earns as much or more than a High Court judge); and


Spending 200 times the number of hours on each case than SAPS detectives put in on their cases.

And seeing as though, we have been told over and over again that the DSO is the most succesful crime fighting unit we have, they try to put that into context:

This massive concentration of resources, coupled with the fact that the DSO selects the cases it takes on, almost inevitably results in a higher successful prosecution rate than the average.

Now this next bit is what really grabbed my attention:

A more useful comparison would be in assessing the crime-fighting impact of each rand of taxpayers’ money invested respectively in the SAPS and the DSO.

The SAPS’s 20000-odd detectives each carry a case-load of 125 to 500 cases a year — between 10 and 40 a month.

The DSO’s 600 to 700 investigators deal with about 350 new cases a year between them — one case per DSO investigator every two months, which is less than the combined annual caseload of three SAPS detectives, let alone the fact that the DSO spends so much on each case.

Interesting is it not? And this bit about their focus is also interesting:

And the nature of the crimes the DSO takes on as first priority? Are they the crimes that affect South Africans most?

By some estimates, the DSO investigates something less than 5% of organised criminal incidents a year. And most of those are white-collar crimes — with a strong bias towards public sector corruption.

Violent crimes — the crimes South Africans, rich and poor, fear most, and which remain a major factor in our country’s image internationally — comprise a small (arguably a token) proportion of the DSO’s cases.

That was just a few extracts to start the debate, you can go through the piece yourselves, but the question is:

The purpose of this comparison is not to defend the record of SAPS detectives. It is to answer the first question: has the DSO done the job for which it was established?

Any thoughts?

 

[Ou grote]

Yes they have, that was mentioned in your OP.

 

[sox63]

Yes they have, that was mentioned in your OP.

They have what? Failed?

 

[Ou grote]

They have what? Failed?

The DSO HAS done the job for which it was established.

 

[marine1]

I dont believe they failed. They brought to light serious issues of corruption, fraud and white collar crime that we would never have heard about if they had not been around.

 

[Turiko]

Do you know why they say they've failed and why they want them disbanded?

Because the scorpions are quite effective they nail even the corrupt crooks in government and as you know the ANC is not known for it's tolerance of criticism they have decided to push for disbandment to protect their cronies from prosecution. It is as simple as that, and as you know, the simplest explanation tends to be the right one, despite all the hype and tripe in the papers.

If they were measure for measure more effective I think the board of directors of a lot of companies would be sitting with their asses in jail today. Companies like- Telkom, iBurst, Tiger Brands, Eskom, Vodacom, MTN, Old Mutual, Alexander Forbes, Discovery.

Compared to the normal police, they are 100x more effective

 

[sox63]

The DSO HAS done the job for which it was established.

By some estimates, the DSO investigates something less than 5% of organised criminal incidents a year. And most of those are white-collar crimes — with a strong bias towards public sector corruption.

I'm sorry, 5% of their focus is just not good enough, and it is not as though they are overloaded with work and under resourced.

@marine1

Such a small percentage is success? And to say "well, we would have never known about it" is not acceptable, if you were a manager of an employee and they told you that in response to doing so small of a percentage of their overall focus, would YOU accept it?

 

[werner]

interesting points made by the OP. my first reaction is that, from a money point of view, it costs more to solve some cases than others..in manpower, equipment and training. either captain obvious is writing press releases, or somebody else hasnt realised this.

if that is the argument they are putting forward for disbanding the scorpions, then it shows the intention is only to solve those crimes which "are cheap to solve". white collar crime surely costs more to solve than a simple mugging etc.

and last i checked, the government/police is there to solve all crime. if they solve cheap crimes only, then arent they guilty of cherry picking their own work??

if only 5% of the crime is being investigated, then the scorpions need to be 20 times bigger.

 

[marine1]

Just remember they are very small, the DSO is not big at all. Their success for their size is very good IMO

 

[Turiko]

I'm sorry, 5% of their focus is just not good enough, and it is not as though they are overloaded with work and under resourced.

I am inclined to agree with this yes, because as I said if they were more efficient we'd see the directors of certain companies sitting where they belong- in jail! However that said I do believe they made a lot of inroads into rooting out corruption in this land.

 

[icyrus]

Now this next bit is what really grabbed my attention:

Interesting is it not?

Not really. That measure doesn't take into account the details of each case and the related complexities.

What is interesting are the justifications given by the ANC. Are the scorpions really the worst performing branch and in such desperate need of an overhaul or is it more likely that they are paying the price for targeting influential ANC members?

Given the ANC's track record, the latter is infinitely more likely.

 

[sox63]

interesting points made by the OP. my first reaction is that, from a money point of view, it costs more to solve some cases than others..in manpower, equipment and training. either captain obvious is writing press releases, or somebody else hasnt realised this.

if that is the argument they are putting forward for disbaning the scorpions, then it shows the intention is only to sovle those crimes which "are cheap to solve". white collar crime surely costs more to solve than a simple mugging etc.

and last i checked, the government/police is there to solve all crime. if they solve cheap crimes only, then arent they guilty of cherry picking their own work??

The argument put forward by the two dudes, IMO, is more around have they succeeded, considering their resources, and would those resources not be better utilised elsewhere, like violent crime, which lets face it is more pressing and more of a crisis to you and me. Well, me anyway.

And violent crime is not by any means "cheap", it is far more expensive, and destructive.

@marine1
Size is no excuse especially looking at the number of cases handled by each investigator each month, and lets not forget FAR better paid and resourced.

 

[Turiko]

Not really. That measure doesn't take into account the details of each case and the related complexities.

What is interesting are the justifications given by the ANC. Are the scorpions really the worst performing branch and in such desperate need of an overhaul or is it more likely that they are paying the price for targeting influential ANC members?

Given the ANC's track record, the latter is infinitely more likely.

As per what I said above, it is the latter yes. They are paying the price for targeting the corrupt ANC bigwigs.

 

[sox63]

Not really. That measure doesn't take into account the details of each case and the related complexities.

What is interesting are the justifications given by the ANC. Are the scorpions really the worst performing branch and in such desperate need of an overhaul or is it more likely that they are paying the price for targeting influential ANC members?

Given the ANC's track record, the latter is infinitely more likely.

Guys, I think for the purposes of this discussion, we focus on the performance of the DSO, and not the questionable reasons put forward by the ruling party to integrate them into the SAPS. We can tackle that one later.

 

[dlk001]

I often wonder why the Scorpions could not use their innovative resources to eradicate crime syndicates that are related to operations like Hijacking that are killing innocent people daily?

I would have been happier with that success rate than other high profile corruption and fraud cases they tackled.

 

[Sarakael]

Who actually thinks the SAP detectives investigate properly even 20% of the cases they have?

 

[Albereth]

DSO = Directorate of Special Operations.

If you dealt with everything that came along you wouldn't be special, now would you?

And if your arguement is about the cost per case, well how much has been brought into the state coffers through asset forfeiture?

And it seems pretty cynical to have Bizos 'legitimise' the disbandment. Remember that lawyers aren't actually interested in the truth or betterment of society. All they care about is their client.

 

[sox63]

DSO = Directorate of Special Operations.


If you dealt with everything that came along you wouldn't be special, now would you?

Point taken, however, my point is that, of their special focus, Organised crime, they don't cover a lot of it don't they?

And if your arguement is about the cost per case, well how much has been brought into the state coffers through asset forfeiture?

I will look it up, however I doubt it is that significant in the grand scheme of things. By that i mean organised crime as a whole.

And it seems pretty cynical to have Bizos 'legitimise' the disbandment. Remember that lawyers aren't actually interested in the truth or betterment of society. All they care about is their client.

It's not George Bizos, but Fivaz, former police commisioner IIRC. The two guys are from the "security cluster".

Maybe we need the opinion of RS/GT, I think that is his name, he always responds on cop related stuff?

 

[marine1]

DSO = Directorate of Special Operations.

If you dealt with everything that came along you wouldn't be special, now would you?

And if your arguement is about the cost per case, well how much has been brought into the state coffers through asset forfeiture?

And it seems pretty cynical to have Bizos 'legitimise' the disbandment. Remember that lawyers aren't actually interested in the truth or betterment of society. All they care about is their client.

Excellent points.

 

[Ou grote]

I'm sorry, 5% of their focus is just not good enough, and it is not as though they are overloaded with work and under resourced.
...

Don't the FBI have larger budgets and do something similar?
We now have nothing like that.