Affirmative Action here forever

[Awakener]

Once again your ignorance is showing, let us look at the definition of AA



I hope that sorts out your misconceptions, you should try to think for yourself, instead of believing everything your peers or elders tell you.




The National Party ran this country into the ground, the country was bankrupt, the ANC pulled it out of the doldrums, the economy is growing, and life has never been better for the majority of South Africans



These are things you simply cannot deny

The problem with the ANC is that they are bad at propaganda

Xtermin8or>-> you may blurt out all the inconsequential “statistical” financial improvements in S.A under the ANC leadership. But we all know that your financial bottom line and stats are very rarely the same. To understand a Macro infrastructure you must have an organised Micro infrastructure and that is what this country is lacking. It is all fair and well to go on about foreign investment rising and the JAWS looking positive but the economics of the country has to take all effecting aspect into consideration. The massively increased crime rate since the “abolishment of white power” and the continuous rise in dread disease!! How exactly is the ANC combating these issues, by presenting your aforementioned figures to the country and the rest of the world in order to cover up all the actual philandering of Tax money in to the coffers of greedy “formally disadvantaged” (i.e. fled to Europe where received a top education and financial backing to start a civil war). I do not support the actions of apartheid as no man is better then another, but it is the ideals that I hold onto, those ideals of order and structure, even though those ideals were implemented badly by a few who were in power they were still solid. Now we have a democracy dictated by the same idealist that ran apartheid but in reverse, and seeing that very little has been done to try and educate the disadvantaged the masses will blindly follow (and vote) for anyone who promises (even though seldom delivers) them a better life. We are willing to change and for many already changed to try and build a positive view forward for this country, it is the black idealist with a massive chip on their shoulder who are more interested in revenge and spite then taking this country into into a level of greatness that it could be!!

 

[xtermin8or]

because they leave the country ?

Now, we know that this issue has been dealt with in detail in other threads, and I am not going to repeat that discussion on this thread

 

[protzkrog]

just give the gist of the argument

 

[xtermin8or]

blah blah blah

As you are a newbie, i will go easy, you boldly state that there has been massive increases in the crime rate since the abolishment of white power - where is your evidence, you say Govt is not adressing the issue of AIDs, TB and Malaria - visit the Health Department's website to find the comprehensive plans to deal with the issues

 

[IamCanadian]

Yes, the ANC leaders in Lusaka, and London, wanted the armed struggle to continue, and yes Mandela began talking to the Apartheid Government while in prison, but those talks were merely to arrange talks between the ANC leadership and the Government, everything was done with the consent of the ANC leadership - in fact they were meeting as well

The warmongers wanted to have their war. Mandela sold them out. True or not?

.., no whitey is not a thorn in my side, and I do not want whites to be kicked out of the country ( that would not be good )

Who are you trying to kid here?

Show me where any member of Govt. denied that crime is a problem, Mbeki might have said that it is not out of control, but he said it is a serious problem, and Charles Nqakula has said don't just sit and complain, but he admits there is a problem, so where do you get this from

Again, any crime that involves torture is out of control. This happens all the time now, especially against the boers on the land. Why the torture?

Since you chose to try and paint a picture of me, let me do the same for you, you as I recall left the country just before democracy, prolly scared of the black man, and now that you can see the progress being made in the country, you are desperately trying to justify your move, if only to yourself. It must be hard to see the black man prosper, but in the spirit of Ubuntu, I am sure that you will be welcomed back.

I left SA on a complete whim. I had an economic opportunity and took it. Nothing more, nothing less.

I do not need to justify my move because from where I am sitting in Canada, I know that I am better off here. For instance I live in a city where there are a million people with 2-3% unemployment and where crime is virtually non- exsistent compared to SA. I even have an alarm system in my house that I have never turned on and even if I did I do not even know the code. We have no burglar bars, rape gates, armed response teams, sky high insurance rates and no problems with transit, schools, police, courts etc etc. And not to mention that, in the province of Alberta, we are sitting on the second largest reserve of oil in the world behind Saudi. This place is peaceful and it works WELL. So why should I try to justify my move when I am in a better position here?

PS. AA in Canada is applied here to help minorities, not the majority( the Whites)

 

[xtermin8or]

just give the gist of the argument

It is the right of every South African to travel freely, and even settle outside the country, while it is not known why people choose to emmigrate, this is not a situation unique to South Africa, all over the world people leave to pursue opportunities for higher financial return , or what they perceive to be a better quality of life. The country which loses skills, as will inevitably happen, when people leave, must address that shortage, through education and training, but bearing in mind that overproduction of a certain category will lead to unemployment

 

[CeeBee]

And to what would you conribute the economic growth of the country ? if AA is hindering the progress of the economy, and if white guys are being blocked out, why then is there such a low unemployment rate among whites ?

No man... nobody is saying that all AA is doing is hindering the progress of the economy, and that it is all bad.... it is working and helping in a lot of areas, but what the complaint is, as have been stated many times is that it is preventative in some cases, and that is what folks want addressed.
A quick poll on the issue would bring up many instances of that.

 

[xtermin8or]

Everything Mandela did was sanctioned by the ANC, read Long Walk to Freedom, you know nothing of me and can't try to understand how I feel about anyone in this country, our understanding of crime that is out of control is then different, according to me as long as I can go out at night, walk the streets alone, and sleep easy, crime is not out of control, it is a problem and is being dealt with by Government, the people now have to get involved

@ Protzkrog - hope IAC's explanation of why he left helps you to understand the phenomenon

as for your tirade

I even have an alarm system in my house that I have never turned on and even if I did I do not even know the code. We have no burglar bars, rape gates, armed response teams, sky high insurance rates and no problems with transit, schools, police, courts

I am happy that you are happy where you are, and good luck with your future endeavours, I am happy right here in die vaderland met my volk

 

[xtermin8or]

No man... nobody is saying that all AA is doing is hindering the progress of the economy, and that it is all bad.... it is working and helping in a lot of areas, but what the complaint is, as have been stated many times is that it is preventative in some cases, and that is what folks want addressed.
A quick poll on the issue would bring up many instances of that.

a quick poll on this forum is hardly representative

 

[IamCanadian]

I am happy that you are happy where you are, and good luck with your future endeavours, I am happy right here in die vaderland met my volk

Now if I could get your stupid government to restart paying my 80 year old mothers' guavament pension, things would be even better.

They took it away from her after 20 years of payment because some idiot in home affairs can't seem to process the correct documents.

 

[CeeBee]

a quick poll on this forum is hardly representative

yes, with that I can agree
but we would get lots of stories of people who has family or know of situations where a company or organisation can't get a much needed position filled, because they're not allowed to employ an available white dude, and even after marketing the position, no suitable AA candidates can be found.... which of course doesn't benefit the co or economy.
a wider research into the subj would be a good idea.

 

[Fudzy]

a quick poll on this forum is hardly representative

yes, with that I can agree
but we would get lots of stories of people who has family or know of situations where a company or organisation can't get a much needed position filled, because they're not allowed to employ an available white dude, and even after marketing the position, no suitable AA candidates can be found.... which of course doesn't benefit the co or economy.
a wider research into the subj would be a good idea.

AA and employment equity are two completely different things right?

 

[xtermin8or]

a quick poll on this forum is hardly representative

yes, with that I can agree
but we would get lots of stories of people who has family or know of situations where a company or organisation can't get a much needed position filled, because they're not allowed to employ an available white dude, and even after marketing the position, no suitable AA candidates can be found.
a wider research into the subj would be a good idea.

Nothing stops the said company or organisation from employing the available white guy, case in point, I have mentioned this before, the company I work for needed an Afrikaans speaker, no suitable AA candidate was found and they hired a white guy - problem solved, AA allows for that, but the political propaganda by people hellbent on forwarding their own political agendas ignores this fact, and frankly it is a disservice to their own people, so many here on this forum have said they don't even apply for jobs which are advertised as AA - why not, if a suitably qualified candidate from a designated group is not available then the person will have to come from a non-designated group

 

[xtermin8or]

AA and employment equity are two completely different things right?

Affirmative Action is a measure used to attain Employment Equity and is outlined in Employment Equity Act, it is really a simple piece of legislation, but it has been so covoluted by so many people, that most people do not understand how to implement it

 

[Awakener]

Me being a "neewbie" should have no result on my opinion, or does discrimination run as deep to exclude new parties into the forum, firstly let me give you a background of my perceptions. I have travelled around to many parts of the world and not on a golden tick - I have done everything from manual labour to high end business in order to further myself. I brought my Scottish born fiancé to South Africa, not because it was the easiest thing to do but more that I am proud to be South African and do not want to have leave my country of birth because of an escalating political injustice. You and I have the same motion at hand and that is to better this country, I feel (taking by my viewings of how other countries are run) this process can be handled allot better. If I could click my fingers and put a roof over everyone’s head, food into every persons mouth and an education into every child mind I would. I have no need or wanting to discriminate against any race or gender but in turn am tired of being discriminated against myself. As for your “Proof” I do not need to justify my statements with figures as the proof is all around us and that is something every person, whether you would like to admit it or not’ sees. Taking entire commercial planes for a quick trip across the globe on a shopping adventure using the Tax payer’s money is not exactly what I would call proficient spending of resources. The HD might have plans to deal with the issues but the Govt have had plans to deal with many issues and none has come of that. South Africa faces many of the same problems that the majority of the worlds country have, the difference is that we are still so tied into our pathetic and bitter squabbles with each other that we are going to bring this country down. Fortunately there is to much international economy present in South Africa at the moment but the effect of the “Brain drain” will take its toll eventually and we will be faced with an economic depression. Evan cell in the ANC want AA and BEE abolished, I feel employment must be fair and non discriminatory but and would not lament seeing the death of AA and BEE and a more subtle and fair approach devised.

 

[CeeBee]

Nothing stops the said company or organisation from employing the available white guy,..., AA allows for that, but the political propaganda by people hellbent on forwarding their own political agendas ignores this fact, and frankly it is a disservice to their own people, so many here on this forum have said they don't even apply for jobs which are advertised as AA - why not, if a suitably qualified candidate from a designated group is not available then the person will have to come from a non-designated group

the post was not that they won't apply if the position is advertised as AA, beacuse they don't want to, the post, and the reality out there is, "AA only" so if you are not AA, you needn't even apply, because it just will not even be considered... no 'political agenda' at all.
U just don't want to accept that it happens, do u?
we can go around and around with the discussion all we like, but the fact remains, AA definately has its good points, but...

 

[xtermin8or]

Me being a "neewbie" should have no result on my opinion, or does discrimination run as deep to exclude new parties into the forum, firstly let me give you a background of my perceptions. I have travelled around to many parts of the world and not on a golden tick - I have done everything from manual labour to high end business in order to further myself. I brought my Scottish born fiancé to South Africa, not because it was the easiest thing to do but more that I am proud to be South African and do not want to have leave my country of birth because of an escalating political injustice. You and I have the same motion at hand and that is to better this country, I feel (taking by my viewings of how other countries are run) this process can be handled allot better. If I could click my fingers and put a roof over everyone’s head, food into every persons mouth and an education into every child mind I would. I have no need or wanting to discriminate against any race or gender but in turn am tired of being discriminated against myself. As for your “Proof” I do not need to justify my statements with figures as the proof is all around us and that is something every person, whether you would like to admit it or not’ sees. Taking entire commercial planes for a quick trip across the globe on a shopping adventure using the Tax payer’s money is not exactly what I would call proficient spending of resources. The HD might have plans to deal with the issues but the Govt have had plans to deal with many issues and none has come of that. South Africa faces many of the same problems that the majority of the worlds country have, the difference is that we are still so tied into our pathetic and bitter squabbles with each other that we are going to bring this country down. Fortunately there is to much international economy present in South Africa at the moment but the effect of the “Brain drain” will take its toll eventually and we will be faced with an economic depression. Evan cell in the ANC want AA and BEE abolished, I feel employment must be fair and non discriminatory but and would not lament seeing the death of AA and BEE and a more subtle and fair approach devised.

Firstly, by saying that you are a newbie, I meant that you are not familiar with the debates that have been had on this forum, be that as it may, one of the major problems in this country is the issue of perception, there are many perceptions, and yes to have a debate, one can not rely on anecdotal evidence, one must provide facts to back up their statements, the reason people do not provide facts is because they can't do it without disproving their perceptions

The effect of the Brain Drain will take it's toll eventually, are you saying that people who are being educated now will in the future not be competent enough to do their jobs, if the brain drain were to have an effect that effect would be now, not later.

Now a little advice there, newbie, go back and read the rest of the thread, as, as much as I would like to indulge you, i do not have the time to repeat my arguments

 

[BobbyMac]

Yes, there is a large part of the population who are living in abject poverty, and yes that part of the population is growing increasingly restless that not enough is being done to help them out of poverty, and it would be foolish of govt to ignore the problem, hence they have implemented numerous poverty relief programmes, and things like AA.

Would you agree that the population in abject poverty is growing?

 

[xtermin8or]

For those who are interested, here is the section of the Employment Equity Act, that deals with AA

3. Chapter 3 – Affirmative Action
3.1 Duties of a Designated Employer: Section 13
a. A designated employer must implement affirmative action measures for designated groups to achieve employment equity.
b. In order to implement affirmative action measures, a designated employer must:
• consult with employees;
• conduct an analysis;
• prepare an employment equity plan; and
• report to the Director-General on progress made in the implementation of the plan.
3.2 Affirmative Action measures: Section 15
a. Affirmative action measures are measures intended to ensure that suitably qualified employees from designated groups have equal employment opportunity and are equitably represented in all occupational categories and levels of the workforce.
b. Such measures must include:
• identification and elimination of barriers with an adverse impact on designated groups;
• measures which promote diversity;
• making reasonable accommodation for people from designated groups;
• retention, development and training of designated groups (including skills development); and
• preferential treatment and numerical goals to ensure equitable representation. This excludes quotas.
c. Designated employers are not required to take any decision regarding an employment policy or practice that would establish an absolute barrier to prospective or continued employment or advancement of people not from designated groups.
3.3 Consultation: Sections 16 and 17
A designated employer must take reasonable steps to consult with representatives of employees representing the diverse interests of the workforce on the conducting of an analysis, preparation and implementation of a plan, and on reporting to the Director-General.
3.4 Disclosure of Information: Section 18
To ensure meaningful consultation, the employer must disclose relevant information to the consulting parties, subject to section 16 of the Labour Relations Act 66 of 1995.
3.5 Analysis: Section 19
A designated employer must conduct an analysis of employment policies, practices, procedures, and working environment so as to identify employment barriers that adversely affect members of designated groups. The analysis must also include the development of a workforce profile to determine to what extent designated groups are under-represented in the workplace.
3.6 Employment Equity Plan: Section 20
a. A designated employer must prepare and implement a plan to achieve employment equity, which must:
• have objectives for each year of the plan;
• include affirmative action measures;
• have numerical goals for achieving equitable representation;
• have a timetable for each year;
• have internal monitoring and evaluation procedures, including internal dispute resolution mechanisms; and
• identify persons, including senior managers, to monitor and implement the plan.
3.7 Report : Section 21
a. An employer who employs fewer than 150 employees must submit its first report to the Director-General within 12 months after the commencement of the Act, and thereafter every 2 years on the first working day of October.
b. An employer who employers 150 or more employees, must submit its first report 6 months after the commencement of the Act, and thereafter every year on the first working day of October.
3.8 Designated employer must assign a manager: Section 24
A designated employer must assign one or more senior managers to ensure implementation and monitoring of the employment equity plan and must make available necessary resources for this purpose.
3.9 Income Differentials : Section 27
A statement of remuneration and benefits received in each occupational category and level of the workforce must be submitted by a designated employer to the Employment Conditions Commission (ECC).
Where there are disproportionate income differentials, a designated employer must take measures to reduce it progressively. Such measures may include collective bargaining, compliance with sectoral determinations (section 51 of the Basic Conditions of Employment Act); the application of norms and benchmarks recommended by the ECC, relevant measures contained in skills development legislation, and any other appropriate steps.

 

[Nod]

@ xtermin8or
Go here. Click on "Advanced search". See the option for selecting AA positions only. All local job search engines have that option, implying that your explanation is not in sync with whats happening in the "real world".