DigitalSoldier
Honorary Master
Well is that not what AA basically says ?
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Affirmative Action here forever
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Well is that not what AA basically says ?
dlk001
Executive Member
No, its not. Its your interpretation.
DigitalSoldier
Honorary Master
Indeed it is
But please tell me what does it boil down to ?
Edit: I have no problem like stated before if AA is implemented correctly but at the moment how it is implemented in this country is discimination.
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Source: http://www.anc.org.za/ancdocs/pr/1994/pr0309.html
According to government, whites had not been disadvantaged, so whites will not be considered for AA positions.
dlk001
Executive Member
Well, that seems to tie statistically with the situation SA is in as far as inequalities are concerned. Perhaps inequalities exist because "whites had not been disadvantaged".
Lets give those who were disadvantaged (the vast majority of SA population) a chance too. Obviously, a few will not be happy with that but diversity will hopefully benefit everyone in the long run.
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AA, IMO, would work better if it worked on social status, i.e. how poor you are, not how dark you are. Also, putting money into education, would help a lot more people in the long run than AA in it's current form.
CooperS
Well-Known Member
lewstherin
Senior Member
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AA is an idiotic solution that flouts basic economics in favour of political popularism.
If the govt really wanted to sort out the imbalances, they should have been pouring every available cent into subsidised schooling, trade colleges, universities and all other forms of education.
The historical legacy between the previously disadvantaged and the previously advantaged comes down to two major things:
- lack of the means to acquire education
- lack of the means to support one's family
I'm sure that there are hard core apartheid employers that would never have hired blacks, however thats what the CCMA is for.
The fundamental issue with AA is that it assumes there are enough experienced, skilled blacks to fill all the gaps the quotas require. The hard truth is that there isn't.
In enacting the AA laws, they've driven out a large number of highly skilled, intelligent people that realised there are other places in the world that actually appreciate what they can add to the economy. So skills transfer has become even harder.
On top of that lot, many of the very people that have left are the sorts of people that start new enterprises which create jobs and wealth. But seeing a vastly superior option elsewhere, such people have left, taking their financial, intellectual and human capital with them.
To me, if the government had spent 12 years focusing on educating the next generation rather than formalising reverse apartheid, the lights would stay on in Cape Town.
Instead, a new generation has grown up with the same polarised reality of racial segregation - just with a different name.
If the govt really wanted to sort out the imbalances, they should have been pouring every available cent into subsidised schooling, trade colleges, universities and all other forms of education.
The historical legacy between the previously disadvantaged and the previously advantaged comes down to two major things:
- lack of the means to acquire education
- lack of the means to support one's family
I'm sure that there are hard core apartheid employers that would never have hired blacks, however thats what the CCMA is for.
The fundamental issue with AA is that it assumes there are enough experienced, skilled blacks to fill all the gaps the quotas require. The hard truth is that there isn't.
In enacting the AA laws, they've driven out a large number of highly skilled, intelligent people that realised there are other places in the world that actually appreciate what they can add to the economy. So skills transfer has become even harder.
On top of that lot, many of the very people that have left are the sorts of people that start new enterprises which create jobs and wealth. But seeing a vastly superior option elsewhere, such people have left, taking their financial, intellectual and human capital with them.
To me, if the government had spent 12 years focusing on educating the next generation rather than formalising reverse apartheid, the lights would stay on in Cape Town.
Instead, a new generation has grown up with the same polarised reality of racial segregation - just with a different name.
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IamCanadian
Banned
In Canada here is how AA(aka Employment Equity) was implemented:
As of 1996, people of aboriginal ancestry made up two percent of Canada’s population, and visible minorities comprised another 11 percent.
These people, along with women and people with disabilities, are provided affirmative action, known in Canada as “employment equity,” in a number of ways.
The purpose of employment equity is to make the Canadian workforce reflective of the population at large and to correct conditions of employment disadvantage.
My question, if you look at SA and Canada side by side with roughly the same population, is this: How are the minorities, including the whites, chinese, koreans, Indians, Coloureds and others in South Africa protected under AA?
As of 1996, people of aboriginal ancestry made up two percent of Canada’s population, and visible minorities comprised another 11 percent.
These people, along with women and people with disabilities, are provided affirmative action, known in Canada as “employment equity,” in a number of ways.
The purpose of employment equity is to make the Canadian workforce reflective of the population at large and to correct conditions of employment disadvantage.
My question, if you look at SA and Canada side by side with roughly the same population, is this: How are the minorities, including the whites, chinese, koreans, Indians, Coloureds and others in South Africa protected under AA?
I take it you live in Canada and therefore are not farmiliar with our version of AA.
Here goes
Who is affected ?
As you can see the designated groups in SA (unlike Canada) are not necessarily minorities amongst the population at large. But due to apartheid they are very much minorities in the workplace especially in skilled level positions.
How can employment equity be achieved ?
IamCanadian
Banned
Since AA is applied in other countries to provide employment equity to minorities, how is the white minority provided with employment equity in SA?
Surely a country like SA needs to protect it's minorities including the white minority?
Skeptik
Banned
The way it works is like Canadian AA reversed. So anybody with a pale skin are like the Québécois but are lowest in the pecking order for jobs in the private sector, government contracts, government training schemes, trainees in government sponsored institutions, civil service, bursaries, free/subsidised housing, and even special share deals etc.
Disputed land has to be sold at lower than market rates to anyone with a claim (sometimes spurious) or else the government expropritates it.
Companies are also encouraged to hand over part-ownership to anyone classified as non-white. If they do not, they cannot get government contracts (supply or source).
Minorities are not protected. In fact they have become the whipping boys for all the problems in the country.
IamCanadian
Banned
If this is the case, who would want to live in a country that does not constitutionally protect it's minorities in the workplace?
Surely this sets up a hostile business environment that would become increasingly untenable for minorities in the future SA!
It sounds really messed up. Doesn't it?
Hahaha, JK8, I can tell you are enjoying this. I'll be keen to see how you feel in 10 years time, when South Africa has degraded to just another African country. Do yourself a favour and go and visit a couple of African countries - SA is marvelous compared to ANY of the other African countries – for now. And, unfortunately, SA WILL go down the same road. So, yes, go ahead, support your new form of apartheid, and see where the country ends up.
I have started my application to move to Auz, because of ppl with your type of mentality. And, I am afraid that you are too simple minded to realize the implications of the mass exodus happening right now.
Do you really and honestly think that somehow, South Africa will not fall into that same hole?
I have started my application to move to Auz, because of ppl with your type of mentality. And, I am afraid that you are too simple minded to realize the implications of the mass exodus happening right now.
Do you really and honestly think that somehow, South Africa will not fall into that same hole?
I disagree Fully. IT ALREADY DEGRADED beyond redeem. We are on borrowed time and freebie money. Donors fatigue is setting in. We will be worse than ZIM SOONer than later. AND JK8 Knows it! His just stuck with his foolish and feeble comrade mentality attitude due to the "links" to the struggle, Yeah "struggle" as they do still now after a decade! Just cannot rule, like the rest of Africa. First IDI Amin, Now Mugabe...Next ZUMA? or just still Mbeki. No he will hide behind his 90 Mill walls, laughing at the populace.
dlk001
Executive Member
He's standing on top of the wall, laughing at this wishful thinking....
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brixton tower
Expert Member
Where does one start?
Basically white people have had job reservation for 400 years and for about 40 odd years it was formalised into law. The white folk in South Africa were not born with skills or some sort of God-given intellect that made them superior. The apartheid government imported white skills (remember the white influx from a depressed post WW2 Europe?) in pretty much the same way Oz, ENZED and the UK governments are doing right now.
Let me break it down, AA is not unfair because in the LONG run South Africa will benefit from a skilled middle class who are dedicated to this country.
And please, don't blame the power blackouts on AA...that's a nice piece of propaganda used by the racists that just won't wash...you and every intelligent being knows why we had power blackouts- a fast growing economy without provision being made for new energy demands.
IamCanadian
Banned
From where I am sitting it looks as if AA is going to be in SA FOREVER! So this means that for 400 and more years into the future, SA is now ensuring that minorities, including whitey, will be at a disadvantage to the black majority.
And your so called skilled middle class is yet to manifest and it won't if minorities are discriminated against as AA is applied now. Even the phrase "middle class" doesn't even belong in the ANC/SACP lexicon. They are just paying it lip service and everyone knows that Africa does not have a middle class anywhere. All you have is a few with everything and the masses with nothing. Give me one good example of a country in Africa where there is this middle class and preferrably in a country with more than 1 million inhabitants where 25% of the population does not have AIDS.
This just looks like it is a communist scheme to mess things up.
AA should be applied in the reverse way than it is being applied in SA otherwise you have a surefire recipe for trouble.
Trouble is Brixton, you won't be able to see this because you are brainwashed by the ANC, SACP and COSATU.
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RichardP
Banned
AA is in the SA constitution... So the Human right commision has got no leg to stand on.
If you dont like it.. read the SA constitution. AA will NEVER END, and its protected.
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lewstherin
Senior Member
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So fix the past 400 years with another 400 years of the same (just with the races reversed)...yeah that's bright.brixton tower said:
My whole argument is that clearly a better solution is to educate rather than litigate.
Any rational employer will take the best person for the job when given the option; skin colour/cultural background would not even come into it. The few employers that persisted with hiring less qualified people based on race would go bankrupt eventually.
So if the government poured all their energy into creating a new generation of skilled workers (through education subsidies, new colleges etc), blacks would naturally get more jobs because they'd have the skills to compete on an equal footing.
lol, you must have quite an inferiority complex to utter that...especially since I've never hinted at anything of the sort.brixton tower said:
The governments mentioned are importing skills...not white skills as you mentioned. All of these governments rightly realise that the important factor is whether the people coming in can do the job or not...they could care less about your skin colour or background. Unfortunately the SA government doesn't have the same attitude...it seems that in SA a poorly skilled black person has more value than a highly skilled white/indian/coloured person...and thus the mass exodus of skills will continue.brixton tower said:
When given a option of more money, less discrimination and a safer life, anyone would give that a second look...
Substantiation?brixton tower said:
A skilled middle class requires skills. It also requires enough jobs that pay well enough. Both of these are dwindling commodities in the new SA thanks largely to government policies.
All the ANC has suceeded in doing is creating a small black middle class of questionable skill level, at the expense of the greater majority that are left uneducated and unemployed...
Oh man, you really like the strong stuff. Nice use of the favorite "racist" line - I never saw that comingbrixton tower said:
I find that when someone resorts to using racism as an argument, they've already lost.Any well organised, well skilled and decently managed company knows how to do growth forecasting and planning.
A fast growing economy, and the resultant increase in electricity demand doesn't just happen - it takes years to get going and the signs are clear. The head comrades at Eskom were either too inexperienced to see it coming, or too poorly skilled to know how to manage it. I have an uncle that works high up in the engineering side of Eskom, and the stories he can tell about the gross mismanagement and general chaos several AA promotions have brought to his division are plain scary.
Keep those candles close my friend - you're gonna need them.
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