Affirmative Action here forever

protzkrog said:
and what is the best way to get them level ?
by appointing people with their skin colour as only criterium ?

i've always wondererd what happens to a person that for instance has a black grandparent...will he be advantaged by AA or not ?

where does one draw the line ?
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They fall under coloured I think. The skin colour is not the only criteria!! You missing the point!! If 2 candidates have simalar qualifications both from different races, the former oppressed person will get the job.

Roo! said:
It's amazing how the majority believe that to level the playing field you have to hold the others back. How about standing up and making things better for yourselves? How about rising the playing field instead of dropping it? Why is it that in order to have things better for one group another must suffer? Surely that is what a global village is about, equal opportunities for all?
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I think you need to start with getting the teams right, equal, let the skills develop then start raising the bar!!

The other group is not suffering as you put it, its a little molehill they have to encounter now and again, chances are if they good enough they will find something!
 
Syndyre said:
What? Accept it could be worse? How is it acceptable to move from a situation where certain groups were treated as second class citizens to a situation where a different group are now treated that way?
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Once again I am led to believe that we are living in different countries, tell me which group is being treated as a second class citizen, and how ?
 
JK8 said:
I think you need to start with getting the teams right, equal, let the skills develop then start raising the bar!!

The other group is not suffering as you put it, its a little molehill they have to encounter now and again, chances are if they good enough they will find something!
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Is not suffering???!!!!

Our children have absolutely no prospects for work unless we create it for them (but don't get too big as you'll be told who you must hire)!!!

We've forced to carry lazy, incapable people in order to have them promoted as our managers!!!

The infrastructure that was working is falling to pieces!!!!

There are no qualified tradesman to fill the voids left by people fleeing for there lives and livelihoods!!!

How are we NOT suffering???!!!

You are so blind that if the truth was standing right in front of you you'd still not know it was there!!!
 
JK8 said:
They fall under coloured I think. The skin colour is not the only criteria!! You missing the point!! If 2 candidates have simalar qualifications both from different races, the former oppressed person will get the job.
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and if the white guy comes from a poor PTA West family and the black guy from a rich black family (eg. one that can afford R4 mil of jewelry) what will be the case ?

oh ja, and it's 'similar'
 
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Hey i am oppressed ! I am using vodafone live ! How you remove the firmware ? I am at a disadvantage.i got no mp3 player.lol
 
There is nothing wrong with affirmative action. There is a problem with quotas. Given two equal candidates, one a white male, another who is not, I will hire the one who is not a white male. White men had all the best jobs to themselves, everywhere, not just in South Africa. I only object to being forced to hire someone less qualified to fill a quota.
 
xtermin8or said:
Once again I am led to believe that we are living in different countries, tell me which group is being treated as a second class citizen, and how ?
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Not different countries, just different perceptions. :D Well in my opinion when you have a certain group of your population that, while being full SA citizens is not able to qualify for government contracts on their own, is forced to hire people that may not be as competent as their first choice and is told that discrimination against them is allowed "as long as it is fair" that group is being treated as second class citizens. I'm not saying its as bad as it was under Apartheid, but the fact remains that situation exists.
 
nthdimension said:
There is nothing wrong with affirmative action. There is a problem with quotas. Given two equal candidates, one a white male, another who is not, I will hire the one who is not a white male. White men had all the best jobs to themselves, everywhere, not just in South Africa. I only object to being forced to hire someone less qualified to fill a quota.
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Aside from whether this is right or wrong, realistically you're never going to get 2 candidates that are exactly equal, someone will always be at least marginally better, whatever colour or gender they are. Why should young white males be penalised for what happened historically anyway?
 
CREATE prosperous societies even after $580 billion is thrown their way
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It was not thrown their way. It was loaned and those loans came with strings attached. Those were requirements that they cripple their economies and any chance of competing against the people who loaned them the money.

Imagine the bank offering you a business loan, but requiring that you operate your business in an unprofitable manner. They claim to know what they're doing, and you need that money to get your business running. Turns out those 'experts' were clueless, so now you're left with a failed business and massive debt you can never repay.

Africa has in fact managed to repay huge amounts of money, but paying back those loans is crippling. They didn't wipe out their economies and destabilise their countries on their own. Much more robust economies suffered damage that nearly destroyed them because they followed the instructions of the IMF and World Bank. The former head of one of those organisations eventually admitted that their economic policies were worthless.
 
JK8 said:
The skin colour is not the only criteria!! You missing the point!! If 2 candidates have simalar qualifications both from different races, the former oppressed person will get the job.

hmmm... :confused: similar qual, better qual, whateva.
what most folks are complaining about BEE/AA, as it is implimented, is that the skills don't matter... doesnt matta if the other dude's got similar or better (or even any) skills, the job is only available to the 'former oppressed person' the other dude isnt even elligible for the job....
In many cases a skilled worker, with many years experience in his job, is just replaced by an AA character, how does this new guy have anywhere close to same level of skills?
Pretty soon we're gonna have workers who were born after '94, and can't really claim to be "former oppressed" .... how long are we gonna ride that excuse?
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protzkrog said:
and if the white guy comes from a poor PTA West family and the black guy from a rich black family (eg. one that can afford R4 mil of jewelry) what will be the case ?

oh ja, and it's 'similar'
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Well if you were up against a rich suave white guy you still wont get the job! Then you can blame your parents and the world.
 
noxibox said:
It was not thrown their way. It was loaned and those loans came with strings attached. Those were requirements that they cripple their economies and any chance of competing against the people who loaned them the money.
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Loans are optional - no one can force you to take a loan.
Blaming everything on the IMF and World Bank is a pathetic excuse - if you don't like the strings or don't agree with their policies then you don't take the loan.
 
Syndyre said:
Aside from whether this is right or wrong, realistically you're never going to get 2 candidates that are exactly equal, someone will always be at least marginally better, whatever colour or gender they are. Why should young white males be penalised for what happened historically anyway?
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I often have two or even three people that are so close I have to make a judgement call. Somebody has to be disappointed. Why should I favour a white male? Back when I started working there would have been no point in a black man applying for the same job, even if he were better qualified. And a woman, forget it.

On the other hand I simply don't know a single white male who has struggled to find work due to affirmative action. Clearly some people are having trouble.
 
nthdimension said:
There is nothing wrong with affirmative action. There is a problem with quotas. Given two equal candidates, one a white male, another who is not, I will hire the one who is not a white male. White men had all the best jobs to themselves, everywhere, not just in South Africa. I only object to being forced to hire someone less qualified to fill a quota.
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They acting like they dont stand a chance!
I think it psychological, just a negative way of looking at things.
 
Paul_S said:
Loans are optional - no one can force you to take a loan.
Blaming everything on the IMF and World Bank is a pathetic excuse - if you don't like the strings or don't agree with their policies then you don't take the loan.
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That is a truly stupid argument.
 
CeeBee said:
Pretty soon we're gonna have workers who were born after '94, and can't really claim to be "former oppressed" .... how long are we gonna ride that excuse?
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they are 13 now...so 6 years before they enter the job market...
ag but the ANC will still blame it on apartheid...because their parents "suffered" under apartheid and all that...

they aren't going to let go of their perfect scapegoat for everyting
 
protzkrog said:
and what is the best way to get them level ?
by appointing people with their skin colour as only criterium ?

i've always wondererd what happens to a person that for instance has a black grandparent...will he be advantaged by AA or not ?

where does one draw the line ?
Click to expand...
The irony is that the ANC has to use old Apartheid racial classification methods to find out who to empower. If you were in the struggle movement, you automatically qualify.
 
protzkrog said:
they are 13 now...so 6 years before they enter the job market...
ag but the ANC will still blame it on apartheid...because their parents "suffered" under apartheid and all that...

they aren't going to let go of their perfect scapegoat for everyting
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In 6 years your argument might be stronger and maybe more valid.
 
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