Affirmative Action here forever

[McSack]

I must say i agree with @xtermin8or though. I'm white, tight and over 35 ... and I love AA /EE. It keeps me in demand and well paid. My clients have plenty IT "professionals" sitting around unable to get the job done becasue they don' have the necessary skills / experience. So they pay me and my colleagues a whack to help them out.

The problem with companies being forced to get EE stats up to scratch is that they don't really have much of a choice. So what happens is they are forced to employ people just to satisfy certain charters. Hell there's no argument that the ideal of employing a black person over a similarly qualified white person is the "right thing to do", the problem is that the EE experience pool is just not that big right now, so companies are forced to settle for "potential". In many cases a lower qulaified and experienced black candidate is selected over a higher qualified white candidate with more experience. In some cases white candidates are not even considered, irrespective of their skills.

Skills and experience are in demand no matter what your skin color. Government is just shooting themselves in the foot by not managing the proper implementation of EE

 

[CeeBee]

come on X, are you really telling us u don't believe its happening that AA in many cases prevents white folk from getting a certain job? (not talking jobs in general)
I have seen it many times, a certain job is for AA only, so whites can't even apply.
So, especially in skilled positions, where there is a shortage of these types of people, especially of good black persons, the company can't employ a white dude, and as such has to go without the skill.
There are many companies, where the services, of the company has gone backwards, because they can't employ a good skilled (available) white guy, and there are simply no black guys who apply for the job.
AA has its good points too, in helping to get more blacks employed, but the implimentation of it can in many cases hinder employment too much, and be a negative thing... that is what most people have against it.
When we get to a point where there are enough people of all races to choose from, then it will be much better, but for now in many cases the companies, economy, unemployment get screwed over with a policy that says, either AA or nothing... there's just no denying that

 

[McSack]

That is because there is a shortage of these people in the country, show me where there are people who have these skills sitting without a job

Agreed, but why is there a shortage of these people in SA? And if there is a shortage then surely you don't want to create more of a shortage by discourageing youngsters from entering the market by closing the career to certain race groups

 

[xtermin8or]

Agreed, but why is there a shortage of these people in SA? And if there is a shortage then surely you don't want to create more of a shortage by discourageing youngsters from entering the market by closing the career to certain race groups

simply because, the policies of Apartheid kept, non-whites out of fields like engineering, there is your shortage, the economic turnaround in the country, has led to a need for more skilled people, so if there are no skills, companies have to go elsewhere. I work in a company where an AA position was advertised and no suitable candidate could be found from a designated group ( the person had to be fluent in Afrikaans ) so a white guy was hired.

Since there is a quota system in place in most industries, there is a percentage of every sector of the workforce which must be non-white, meaning there is a percentage that may be white, and since the white population is a minority, they will be able to find jobs.

As I have stated before, there is no worrying unemployment rate among whites, there is however among blacks, and so the discrimination of AA and the punishment being meted out by AA is merely a perception

 

[Syndyre]

Id put on my running shoes and take them to a park where some guys are playing rugby.

 

[Syndyre]

For purposes of accuracy, it would be prudent to include the reasons it was denied



At least the members of the ANC, tried to take responsibility for their part in making policy, while the leaders of the Apartheid Government refused to come clean

If it was denied why were they never prosecuted? Was prosecution even considered?

 

[Syndyre]

They have never done that, AA, gives preference suitably qualified members of designated groups, a common perception is that AA means that no white person can get work in this country, now that is absolute hogwash, if the quota system is anything to go by, then there is clearly still place for whites as only a certain percentage of blacks need to be employed

You can't deny it makes it significantly harder for whites to get a job compared to "designated groups" though.

 

[Syndyre]

I still fail to see how AA is a racist policy, when it clearly gives everyone a fair chance at gaining employment, simple no.

Let me put it simply:

A POLICY THAT IS BASED ON RACE IS RACIST.

 

[blonde one]

Go feed your dog, you just making up things and trying to over over exaggerate things.

I'll tell you what, when you have worked your butt off to form your own business, and I'm talking a legal registered business here, not some back street curry den, only to see your business deteriorate through being forced to appoint AA employees who are too darn lazy to work then come and tell me I'm 'trying to over over exaggerate things'.

 

[Syndyre]

Its directed to X but id also like to reply.

We all would like to get the jobs we "like" and think we should get!
As for professions that are closed, I think its ok for now, certain careers like engineering need to be accessed by non whites.

Why are the 2 options mutually exclusive? Why not open up the professions for everybody?

 

[JK8]

I'll tell you what, when you have worked your butt off to form your own business, and I'm talking a legal registered business here, not some back street curry den, only to see your business deteriorate through being forced to appoint AA employees who are too darn lazy to work then come and tell me I'm 'trying to over over exaggerate things'.

Lol, Curry Den?
Ooh shame who forced you and how big is your "business?"

 

[Syndyre]

Now, we get to the heart of the problem, should there still be job reservation for whites, so they get the jobs they want, I put it to you, that it is a minority of people who are actually in jobs they dreamt of. But AA does not stop white people from getting those jobs, that is a fallacy, come on, you are an educated person, look around you, there is and always will be place for white people in this country, do yourself a favour and look at the legislation and think about it carefully, and you will see that it is actually a win-win situation for everyone

Who said they wanted job reservation for whites? An open, unrestricted job market based on merit can't be equated to job reservation for whites.

 

[CeeBee]

simply because, the policies of Apartheid kept, non-whites out of fields like engineering, there is your shortage,

there we go.. this is one of the problems...serias, apartheid is dead and gone longtime already... its time to stop blaming apartheid for everything already.
sure, no denying that apartheid gave preference to whites, but that ended long before the official end of apartheid in '94, which is also 12 years ago already.
There are many very good, skilled black engineers, and other professionals, who didn't just pop up now recently, they have been there for many years, but there is still a big shortage, no fault of apartheid.
I have no love for apartheid laws, I was too young to be a part of it, and due to my upbringing wouldn't have made any contribution towards it even if I could, but somewhere we gotta start letting go of blaming all on apartheid

 

[IamCanadian]

The ANC understood the dynamics of the country and had plans in place, but it was only implemented after business was given a chance to transform on their own

the rest of your rantings are not a counter argument, but rather an enforcement of my previous point - white business is responsible for the poor implementation of AA

I doubt the ANC understood the dynamics but that's another story.

As for AA you don't seem to understand that it is there to protect MINORITY groups and NOT the majority! This is EXACTLY how it is in the rest of the world.

The ANC has, just like everything else, got it backwards and if they don't correct it, SA will continue going BACKWARDS just like Zimbabwe and the rest of Africa.

 

[BobbyMac]

Okay, both sides negotiated, but the people on the streets could have reacted violently, in fact, we received many threats that they ( ANC members ) are comming to take our house, but the leadership of the ANC stepped in and stopped it, that is what my point was.

"We received many threats"???? Please stop talking k@k.

Now, we get to the heart of the problem, should there still be job reservation for whites, so they get the jobs they want, I put it to you, that it is a minority of people who are actually in jobs they dreamt of.

Let's just clarify one thing right here:

I don't believe anybody is calling for job reservation for any one group. So stop trying to make as if that is the case.

But AA does not stop white people from getting those jobs, that is a fallacy, come on, you are an educated person, look around you, there is and always will be place for white people in this country, do yourself a favour and look at the legislation and think about it carefully, and you will see that it is actually a win-win situation for everyone

Bull****. I know of several people who have been denied opportunities purely on the basis of their skin colour. I know of people who have been retrenched and replaced by lesser qualified black people. People on this very forum have continuously given similar testimonials. So stop. And think for a few minutes: is everyone lying or are you just badly informed?

Mbeki applied as part of a group seeking blanket amnesty, as they were collabaratively taking responsibility for actions that may have taken part due to their policy decisions - like at a meeting they might have said, we must intensify the armed struggle, the Commandants then took decisions as to the exact details of the operation, so they applied to take responsibility for those decisions, but as such they could not list any specifics, and as no human rights violation had taken place, no amnesty could be granted

**** Thabo Mbeki. He should be tried for Human Rights abuses on the strength of his AIDS denial comments alone.

 

[IamCanadian]

The masses of people in this country would have been justified in seizing white owned farms, taking over white businesses and occupying white houses.

Good Grief!

This statement of yours stands out like nothing else you have said before and it really tells me what it in your heart.

Your use of this is what ordinary white's in SA fear the most. Before the takeover there were two camps within the ANC. One camp wanted war and the other wanted negotiation. The camp that wanted war was blindsided by Mandela.

The camp that wants war seems to be very much alive in SA and you seem to be leading the charge. Hopefully your thinking is not common amongst the masses because if it is, the whites need to pack now and get out.

Don't try to hide behind "I did not mean that" because by you voicing the above statement you have committed yourself to that course of action. When one reads it and how you have couched that statement it is clear which camp you belong in.

Now we know why you call yourself xtermin8tor. Could it be a Freudian slip showing?

 

[Syndyre]

Good Grief!

This statement of yours stands out like nothing else you have said before and it really tells me what it in your heart.

More than this one?

Even violence against whites could easily have been discarded as our people venting their frustrations against the oppressors of the past.

 

[nivek]

I still fail to see how AA is a racist policy, when it clearly gives everyone a fair chance at gaining employment, simple no.

I never apportioned blame, or threatened anyone, i simply put it to you how things could have gone down in this country, and how the ANC created conditions that created a peaceful transition, to show people that their aim is to create a equitable society

erm
almost every job advertised out there says "AA only" in other words "IF YOU'RE NOT BLACK DONT BOTHER" or "BLACKS ONLY" just in a more subtle way. Whether its right or wrong you can debate all day, but the fact is AA discriminates against whites...

 

[nivek]

oh and one would expect JK8 to defend AA Indians are benefiting more from AA/BEE than any other race...

Not that I have a problem with it but just pointing out the reason for JK8's full support. How many unemployed Indians do you know? They generally have the skill and experience, and they fall into the AA category..

 

[IamCanadian]

More than this one?

"Even violence against whites could easily have been discarded as our people venting their frustrations against the oppressors of the past."

On second thoughts, perhaps this statemenat above is indeed worse than the other one.

It is tempting to go to the violence(crime) part of the equation but that belongs in another thread. Personally, I think that violence has not been discarded by the camp in the ANC that wanted war before Mandela sold them out. Witness the farm murders.

To me AA is a form of racist economic violence against the white minority in SA. And we all know that minorities do not fare very well in countries where the majority belongs to one race or another.