Afrihost Uncapped ADSL Feedback (Pt2)

[Fudzy]

A penalty would imply that when you reach a certain amount which we consider abusive, we shape you accordingly, as other ISP's do when they use rolling windows and thresholds. That means whether there is spare capacity or not - that individual user is shaped or throttled until their satisfy the conditions of that policy , e.g. dropping below a certain threshold total at a later stage.

We only shape when demand on the whole network is higher than our available resources - otherwise we don't shape any users that we don't have to

Shaping incurred for downloading more than someone else would be considered a penalty, no?

 

[AfriGuy]

Nah, dude. I'd prefer discussions to remain visible for everyone's benefit. I'm asking an incredibly simple question: are there people on home uncapped (4mb, if you want to get specific) on your Jo'burg IPC, who are currently shaped less severely than 18.8/6.25? It's a yes/no kind of deal...

If yes, I would then like to drop you a PM with my account name so that you can check whether your classification of my account lines up with my current and historic usage. If no, meaning all Jo'burg home uncapped users are presently shaped to 18.8/6.25 or worse, then so be it. As an ancillary question: how fine is your system's regional differentiation... is it as simple as being on the northern, south-western on eastern IPC, or is it more finely divided up?

To answer your two questions:

Are there people on home uncapped (4mb, if you want to get specific) on your Jo'burg IPC, who are currently shaped less severely than 18.8/6.25?

There probably are, remember that the shaping will look at the overall demand first and if shaping needs to be applied, run the top down in terms of usage. Not everyone in the same region will be shaped the same. We want to have as little shaping implemented as possible.

How fine is your system's regional differentiation?

It's as simple as North, South and East

 

[Orihalcon]

Shaping incurred for downloading more than someone else would be considered a penalty, no?

No it doesn't as shaping is only applied when there is a NEED for it. When there is no need all users remain unshaped irrespective of usage.

When there is a need, shaping get's applied from the top down.

Side note: I struggle to figure out why people find this concept so difficult to comprehend. It's plain as day simple.

 

[Fudzy]

No it doesn't as shaping is only applied when there is a NEED for it. When there is no need all users remain unshaped irrespective of usage.

When there is a need, shaping get's applied from the top down.

Side note: I struggle to figure out why people find this concept so difficult to comprehend. It's plain as day simple.

But there seems to be shaping and I was under the impression that this was across the network, not user specific?

 

[HapticSimian]

To answer your two questions:

Are there people on home uncapped (4mb, if you want to get specific) on your Jo'burg IPC, who are currently shaped less severely than 18.8/6.25?

There probably are, remember that the shaping will look at the overall demand first and if shaping needs to be applied, run the top down in terms of usage. Not everyone in the same region will be shaped the same. We want to have as little shaping implemented as possible.

How fine is your system's regional differentiation?

It's as simple as North, South and East

Thank you... we're getting closer.

Now, I didn't ask whether there 'probably' are... and you're rehashing everything we all know by now. I'm trying to establish whether - with a stable usage pattern of 3-odd gigabytes per day spread quite evenly throughout - your system might have erroneously classified me as a heavier user than I actually am. If the entire Northern region is currently shaped to near-maximum extent then, again, so be it... but it's a simple question.

 

[AfriGuy]

Thank you... we're getting closer.

Now, I didn't ask whether there 'probably' are... and you're rehashing everything we all know by now. I'm trying to establish whether - with a stable usage pattern of 3-odd gigabytes per day spread quite evenly throughout - your system might have erroneously classified me as a heavier user than I actually am. If the entire Northern region is currently shaped to near-maximum extent then, again, so be it... but it's a simple question.

We're shaping quite heavily in the North at the moment, it is better than last week - and the week before that too though. We've reviewed our shaping policies and didn't pick up any issues, I honestly doubt that our system is classifying you incorrectly

 

[Orihalcon]

But there seems to be shaping and I was under the impression that this was across the network, not user specific?

Ah. Herein lies the crux of the matter.

Let's say for example there are 3 levels of usage for various users. In terms of severity let's make it from low to high use; 1-2-3.

We do the same for the demand - levels 1-2-3-4-5.

It would break down like this;
Demand____Usage_____Shaping
1_________3_________75/50
2_________3+2_______50/25 (3) + 75/75 (2)
3_________3+2+1_____25/12 (3) + 50/25 (2) + 75/75 (1)
4_________3+2+1_____18/6 (3) + 25/12 (2) + 50/25 (1)
5_________3+2+1_____18/6 (3) + 18/6 (2) + 18/6 (1)


A bit of an over simplified breakdown, but you get the general idea.

@AFripeople - feel free to correct my assumptions.

 

[JasDan]

But there seems to be shaping and I was under the impression that this was across the network, not user specific?

Basically, users range in usage, from heavy downloaders to the ones who only use it for email, and all those in-between. Those users are then subdivided into usage brackets, for example: heavy downloaders, medium downloaders, etc (not as specific, but you get the idea). Then, the shaping system looks at the network load, it's capacity, it's past load and looks at the trend of the load.

If it looks like the load is getting too high, then it begins applying shaping from the top down; heavy, med, light. Eg: heavy downloaders are shaped heavily, medium downloaders less so, and light users are left alone.

This is all performed on an IPC basis too, so Southern users are shaped differently to Northern and Eastern users, and vice-versa.

Hope that *rough* explanation helps with understanding the system.

Ps. The bracketing is not as simple as heavy, med, light. Afrihost must have some more specific ways of grouping users.

Edit: Ah, seems Orihalcon has already helped you too

 

[Fudzy]

Ah. Herein lies the crux of the matter.

Let's say for example there are 3 levels of usage for various users. In terms of severity let's make it from low to high use; 1-2-3.

We do the same for the demand - levels 1-2-3-4-5.

It would break down like this;
Demand Usage Shaping
1 3 75/50
2 3+2 50/25 (3) + 75/75 (2)
3 3+2+1 25/12 (3) + 50/25 (2) + 75/75 (1)
4 3+2+1 18/6 (3) + 25/12 (2) + 50/25 (1)
5 3+2+1 18/6 (3) + 18/6 (2) + 18/6 (1)


A bit of an over simplified breakdown, but you get the general idea.

Clever, so the heavier users are hit first and only if need be do the lighter ones get affected.

 

[AfriGuy]

Clever, so the heavier users are hit first and only if need be do the lighter ones get affected.

Correct, we've been saying that for ages
Remember we're still waiting on additional IPC capacity - I'll post up more info as soon as I can. This should ease shaping for most of the queries seen here.

 

[HapticSimian]

Clever, so the heavier users are hit first and only if need be do the lighter ones get affected.

Not if you're north of the Vaal at present.

 

[AfriGuy]

Not if you're north of the Vaal at present.

It still works like that, we're just shaping more clients

 

[Fudzy]

Correct, we've been saying that for ages

Sorry, from your past comment I thought it was implied that heavy users were treated the same as light users. I didn't think that was a very fair business practice that the people who don't abuse the system get penalized the same way heavy users are.

I don't think that we should focus on 'abusers'. From what I can see, even the heaviest bandwidth users (some of whom were awesome enough to post on this thread a while back), they have their reasons for using the bandwidth they do. I really believe that all of us have role to play in making an awesome network, from the lightest to heaviest users.

 

[AfriGuy]

Sorry, from your past comment I thought it was implied that heavy users were treated the same as light users. I didn't think that was a very fair business practice that the people who don't abuse the system get penalized the same way heavy users are.

When shaping is needed it looks at the highest users first and works its way down. This also isn't entirely done on the actual usage but also takes into how quickly downloads are run, projected usage etc.
Please remember that at the moment isn't the norm - that's why we're shaping more users. It's still done differently per user, and isn't implemented across users reaching xGB - that's unfair

 

[Paul Hjul]

Sorry, from your past comment I thought it was implied that heavy users were treated the same as light users. I didn't think that was a very fair business practice that the people who don't abuse the system get penalized the same way heavy users are.

That is because you are thinking of users being penalized as if they have done something wrong by using their connection which simply is not the way Afrihost works - and it is not the way uncapped should work

There is no naughty corner for people who are using their connection but rather a system of manners and queues that sees the available resources being used as effectively as possible

 

[Fudzy]

That is because you are thinking of users being penalized as if they have done something wrong by using their connection which simply is not the way Afrihost works - and it is not the way uncapped should work

There is no naughty corner for people who are using their connection but rather a system of manners and queues that sees the available resources being used as effectively as possible

So shaping is not a penalty?

 

[Paul Hjul]

So shaping is not a penalty?

Not at all. It is not a consequence of doing something the provider doesn't want you to do.

Penalty: a punishment imposed for breaking a law, rule, or contract

Shaping is a practice like having a queue in a boarding school or university dining room

 

[AfriGuy]

So shaping is not a penalty?

We definitely don't see it as a penalty. Shaping is needed on every network around the world.
Shaping is implemented the way it is on our network to allow realtime services to be untouched all the time - that's a benefit

 

[Fudzy]

Not at all. It is not a consequence of doing something the provider doesn't want you to do.

Penalty: a punishment imposed for breaking a law, rule, or contract

Shaping is a practice like having a queue in a boarding school or university dining room

So then throttling isn't a penalty either by that definition.

 

[Fudzy]

We definitely don't see it as a penalty. Shaping is needed on every network around the world.
Shaping is implemented the way it is on our network to allow realtime services to be untouched all the time - that's a benefit

Perhaps penalty is the wrong word but heavier users are more affected by shaping than lighter ones, correct?