ANCYL taught a lesson...

Devill said:
Also taking pity on/defending an ape like Julius (who would have been an idiot even if he was the son of the Queen of England) makes me think you can not think straight and thus you also advocate BEE/AA :p
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I was hardly defending Julius - I was more dumbstruck by Rozier's ignorance. That is what I was addressing.
 
km2 said:
I'm not arguing with the reality that Blacks did not have many opportunities in the old South Africa, but I'm arguing with the direct cause and effect relationship that you're implying. I.e. Whites only had opportunities because they deprived them from black people. And that's an utter nonsense relationship because plenty of other countries managed to have opportunities without oppressing people, and plenty of other countries without oppression still have zero opportunities (a lot of them right here in Africa).
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Yes I understand that according to you and Bismuth's story, technically, every black under Apartheid had an opportunity (I actually feel siff using that word considering the circumstances). But it would have been incredibly difficult, as a black under Apartheid, to achieve what many of our parents have/had achieved (doctors, lawyers, scientists, businesspeople etc.). That is opression and deprivation. Can you deny this?

I don't even think most blacks were even able to conceive these aspirations and dreams of a successful future, while being subject to Apartheid - something which we, as whites, are familiar with.
 
PostmanPot said:
I don't even think most blacks were even able to conceive these aspirations and dreams of a successful future, while being subject to Apartheid - something which we, as whites, are familiar with.
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But the question is then, after 14 years, do they know what possibilities there are now? Do they realize that they have a real chance to change their future for the better? Do they do anything about it?
 
Nod said:
But the question is then, after 14 years, do they know what possibilities there are now? Do they realize that they have a real chance to change their future for the better? Do they do anything about it?
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Sure they see the possibilities, but only a few make it out of growing up in poverty.

Do you really expect more from them? :confused:
 
PostmanPot said:
Yes I understand that according to you and Bismuth's story, technically, every black under Apartheid had an opportunity (I actually feel siff using that word considering the circumstances). But it would have been incredibly difficult, as a black under Apartheid, to achieve what many of our parents have/had achieved (doctors, lawyers, scientists, businesspeople etc.). That is oppression and deprivation. Can you deny this?

I don't even think most blacks were even able to conceive these aspirations and dreams of a successful future, while being subject to Apartheid - something which we, as whites, are familiar with.
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They had the opportunities, and some did it, why couldn't the rest?.

By that definition, the role of oppressor/oppressed is slowing being reversed, no?

B
 
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PostmanPot said:
How ever you view AA/BEE, unfortunately it is necessary. :(
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It is not necessary, it is just politically expedient. Proper solutions take time and effort, neither of which the anc is willing to commit to something that does not directly enrich them right now.
 
Bismuth said:
They had the opportunities, and some did it, why couldn't the rest?.
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Er, because of Apartheid? Do you think Apartheid was some walk in the park for blacks? :confused:

By that definition, the role of oppressor/oppressed is slowing being reversed, no?
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If you want to view it as "oppressor/oppressed", then fine. Personally I don't think it is as bad as that. Anyway, my point is that the current lot (socio-economic difference) are not discriminating on what the Verwoered lot (biological difference) discriminated on. That is the difference.
 
icyrus said:
It is not necessary, it is just politically expedient. Proper solutions take time and effort, neither of which the anc is willing to commit to something that does not directly enrich them right now.
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I agree. The ANC have certainly failed at it.
 
PostmanPot said:
Sure they see the possibilities, but only a few make it out of growing up in poverty.

Do you really expect more from them? :confused:
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Yes I do. Why shouldn't we? Blame their parents, not apartheid. What's with having 7 children, no car, no house, no job?? :mad:
 
Slootvreter said:
Yes I do. Why shouldn't we? Blame their parents, not apartheid. What's with having 7 children, no car, no house, no job?? :mad:
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Blame their parents? For being restricted by Apartheid to being a maid, garden boy or mine worker? :confused:

Lack of education, lack of contraceptions, lack of structure and order, lack of hope?
 
PostmanPot said:
Blame their parents? For being restricted by Apartheid to being a maid, garden boy or mine worker? :confused:

Lack of education, lack of contraceptions, lack of structure and order, lack of hope?
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I'm talking 14 years later and they still multiply exponentially, even though there are contraceptives freely available everywhere. And you would have thought that children no longer = wealth.
 
PostmanPot said:
Sure they see the possibilities, but only a few make it out of growing up in poverty.

Do you really expect more from them? :confused:
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What are you saying? That they are unable to learn how to read, and from there on do a trade course, or do on the job training (even free, just to get exposure)? If you just sit at home, and hope somebody will come around to offer you a job, you will not get anywhere. So, yes, I expect more.
 
I read some diatribe to the fact I could never be proven that black people would have been better off had Apartheid and prior colonisation never occurred. As such it is impossible to quantify the rectification or normalisation of society to a position that may never have existed, as such it may be unattainable.
 
Slootvreter said:
I'm talking 14 years later and they still multiply exponentially, even though there are contraceptives freely available everywhere. And you would have thought that children no longer = wealth.
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14 years is barely one generation. They are living in poverty, bottom line. It is easy for you to just attribute problems being solved to the fact that contraceptives are publicly and freely available, there AIDS campaigns etc. You have the integrity through good upbringing to utilise these campaigns properly. It will take much longer than barely one generation whom has no access to TV, [sexual] education, basic amenities etc. to sort their problems out.
 
what do we have to do wait more then 14 years?. wait 100 years then they might see the light at the end of the tunnel. 14 years is a ****ing long time and I thought time moves forward and not in the past?
 
PostmanPot said:
B]They are living in poverty[/B]
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Define poverty in the african context?

by 17th century standards they're pretty well off, not only that but evil colonial and evil apartheid health programs (The now quietly disintegrating infrastructure) have allowed their numbers to grow exponentially.
 
Morgoth said:
what do we have to do wait more then 14 years?. wait 100 years then they might see the light at the end of the tunnel. 14 years is a ****ing long time and I thought time moves forward and not in the past?
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14 years is not a long time considering the amount of time blacks were oppressed for. I'm sure there are many who have seen the light at the end of the tunnel since 1994, but the question is how many of them will actually have the means to get there, and how much of an effect Apartheid had on those means.
 
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