ANCYL taught a lesson...

[Kloofvreter]

14 years is barely one generation. They are living in poverty, bottom line. It is easy for you to just attribute problems being solved to the fact that contraceptives are publicly and freely available, there AIDS campaigns etc. You have the integrity through good upbringing to utilise these campaigns properly. It will take much longer than barely one generation whom has no access to TV, [sexual] education, basic amenities etc. to sort their problems out.

I promise you after 100 years there will be no improvement. There will still be shacks and townships, rape, murder, plunder, roberies, hijackings, etc. I wonder, if white people never came to SA, how would it have looked here?

 

[PostmanPot]

Define poverty in the african context?

by 17th century standards they're pretty well off, not only that but evil colonial and evil apartheid health programs (The now quietly disintegrating infrastructure) have allowed their numbers to grow exponentially.

My definition of poverty would be somewhat like growing up on the Cape Flats, or worse - squatter camps in Khayelitsha and Langa etc. Not much hope around those areas.

 

[Kloofvreter]

My definition of poverty would be somewhat like growing up on the Cape Flats, or worse - squatter camps in Khayelitsha and Langa etc. Not much hope around those areas.

Exactly. Those places will still look the same for generations to come...

 

[alloytoo]

I read some diatribe to the fact I could never be proven that black people would have been better off had Apartheid and prior colonisation never occurred. As such it is impossible to quantify the rectification or normalisation of society to a position that may never have existed, as such it may be unattainable.

I think it's a reasonable conclusion that evil colonial medicine is at least in part reasonsible for the increase in population.

The ANC, in favouring using children to pursue their political goals, liberated the masses from whatever education they might have got, and failed dismally, as apposed to other population groups, to provide alternatives to 'bantu' education.

 

[PostmanPot]

I promise you after 100 years there will be no improvement. There will still be shacks and townships, rape, murder, plunder, roberies, hijackings, etc. I wonder, if white people never came to SA, how would it have looked here?

Well if the country continues growing like it is, there will certainly be less shacks and townships etc. I would hope that with that kind of upliftment, better morals and ethics would come too.

It probably would have looked like the Kruger Park?

 

[PostmanPot]

Exactly. Those places will still look the same for generations to come...

Indeed. There will also always be slums in the USA and in Europe.

 

[alloytoo]

My definition of poverty would be somewhat like growing up on the Cape Flats, or worse - squatter camps in Khayelitsha and Langa etc. Not much hope around those areas.

and the evil colonial amenities?

bricks, mortor, corrigated iron?

 

[Kloofvreter]

Indeed. There will also always be slums in the USA and in Europe.

Oh, this is like talking to a Linux fanboy about Windows. FFS, show me the slums in Finland, Norway, Sweden, Switzerland, Greenland, Iceland, Germany, Holland, Spain, Italy....you're probably talking about ****holes like India and Bangladesh, etc. SA is not Europe. White people shouldn't have come here, and leave the natives living in caves and bushes. Would you think that is better off?

 

[boramk]

Well if the country continues growing like it is, there will certainly be less shacks and townships etc. I would hope that with that kind of upliftment, better morals and ethics would come too.

It probably would have looked like the Kruger Park?

The population also grows. Ethiopia disproves your theory

 

[Morgoth]

14 years is not a long time considering the amount of time blacks were oppressed for. I'm sure there are many who have seen the light at the end of the tunnel since 1994, but the question is how many of them will actually have the means to get there, and how much of an effect Apartheid had on those means.

O yea I was born in 1990, 1991 apartheid ended , so I have to suffer 14 years because apparently some people started apartheid or do we have to wait till I'm 42 years old before I can get some kind of fair treatment for this governess?
The black people in this Country were better off then apartheid believe it or not the biggest mistake the Afrikaner made was actually caring for them in the camps, apartheid ended and now they have to do it for themselves they are obviously incompetent to it and blames it all on apartheid,

Believe it or not there are poor whites as well just as poor as the blacks some even worse off due to the political sittuation in the country but do they blame apartheid? I'm sure 90% of their parents weren't that rich before apartheid.

 

[Bismuth]

Er, because of Apartheid? Do you think Apartheid was some walk in the park for blacks?

But why did some make it, and some not, I am talking about blacks here?. I am just trying to understand the logic of blaming apartheid, but then some blacks still managed to be successful.

If you want to view it as "oppressor/oppressed", then fine. Personally I don't think it is as bad as that. Anyway, my point is that the current lot (socio-economic difference) are not discriminating on what the Verwoerd lot (biological difference) discriminated on. That is the difference.

Yes, but they are still discriminating, whatever the difference.

B

 

[JungleBoy]

O yea I was born in 1990, 1991 apartheid ended , so I have to suffer 14 years because apparently some people started apartheid or do we have to wait till I'm 42 years old before I can get some kind of fair treatment for this governess?
The black people in this Country were better off then apartheid believe it or not the biggest mistake the Afrikaner made was actually caring for them in the camps, apartheid ended and now they have to do it for themselves they are obviously incompetent to it and blames it all on apartheid,

Believe it or not there are poor whites as well just as poor as the blacks some even worse off due to the political sittuation in the country but do they blame apartheid? I'm sure 90% of their parents weren't that rich before apartheid.

Afrikaner caring for them!...pfft, boy please!

 

[Morgoth]

Afrikaner caring for them!...pfft, boy please!

If we didn't care for them to some extend would they still be here?
Do you think the military raided Squatter camps to beat up little black kids for fun? no they went in there to keep black people from killing blacks :> do a bit of history research / read your news paper then come back here kk thanks.

 

[alloytoo]

White people shouldn't have come here, and leave the natives living in caves and bushes. Would you think that is better off?

There were wooden huts too.

 

[alloytoo]

Afrikaner caring for them!...pfft, boy please!

Those hospitals that are quietly rotting away in the rural areas functioned once upon a time.

 

[Morgoth]

There were wooden huts too.

o aids why couldn't thou have come 300 years earlier

 

[a-person]

that's a pretty heavy comment right there

 

[km2]

I'm not arguing with the reality that blacks did not have many opportunities in the old South Africa

Yes I understand that according to you and Bismuth's story, technically, every black under Apartheid had an opportunity (I actually feel siff using that word considering the circumstances).

Haha, you really do make up the wildest strawmen. You quote me saying they didn't have opportunities and somehow manage to claim the opposite! And then feel siff about the imaginary point, nice touch.

Let me try and simplify this so that we're perfectly clear.

You're saying: All whites should pay for the material advantage that they received by oppressing blacks.

I'm saying: Oppressing blacks was not directly profitable to the vast majority of whites who lived out their ordinary lives in a manner almost identical to their European counterparts, despite your claims to the contrary. Their European counterparts didn't have any local blacks to oppress so presumably they can act as the "control" to the experiment. Yes, it meant some whites could have a maid and a gardener but that doesn't provide a long-term benefit to whites. The people who made the real money from oppressing blacks were the mines and their HUGE labour force. If you want to talk compensation, then they definitely were built on the backs of the people.

BEE is a system whereby all whites pay, whereas the ones who truly milked the black labour force (mining houses etc) walk away smiling.

 

[Morgoth]

Haha, you really do make up the wildest strawmen. You quote me saying they didn't have opportunities and somehow manage to claim the opposite! And then feel siff about the imaginary point, nice touch.

Let me try and simplify this so that we're perfectly clear.

You're saying: All whites should pay for the material advantage that they received by oppressing blacks.

I'm saying: Oppressing blacks was not directly profitable to the vast majority of whites who lived out their ordinary lives in a manner almost identical to their European counterparts, despite your claims to the contrary. Their European counterparts didn't have any local blacks to oppress so presumably they can act as the "control" to the experiment. Yes, it meant some whites could have a maid and a gardener but that doesn't provide a long-term benefit to whites. The people who made the real money from oppressing blacks were the mines and their HUGE labour force. If you want to talk compensation, then they definitely were built on the backs of the people.

BEE is a system whereby all whites pay, whereas the ones who truly milked the black labour force (mining houses etc) walk away smiling.

Bee is a fail system, end of discussion

 

[kingmonty]

I agree with postmanpat.

Tell me why are the townships filled with just black people and not even a few whites?

You telling me out of the whole population of white people is SA, all of them would of still been in the same positon if it was not for apartheid? lol

You are a bit wrong here - there are whites living in many of South Africa's townships.