Any point to bg?

Pornolio said:
Naaah those pvp gear items are still welfare epic's in my opinion. :)

Those PVP epic items murdered the whole value and term of "epic" quality.
Epics today are not what they were in the old WoW days. Its just too easy to get them. HWL epic's... when it was just accessible to rank 14 players... now that was well deserved epic's !

Its simply just to easy to get PVP epics. Yes you can grind kara over and over for badges, BUT... it still requires you to down a boss to get your badge ! Meaning you need to have co-ordination, team work and proper skilled players to obtain that goal of killing the boss.

Now PVP... lets look @ PVP... you can go do 3000 games, you can loose all 3000 games... you will end up getting honour, and 3000 medal's. So you will end up getting your epic / epic's (which in my opinion was not a well deserved reward). You will get your epics no matter how bad you played. Its just a matter of time. ;)
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3000 x 15 mins (avg. BG match) = 45 000 mins = 750 hours = 31.25 days

But ok. Lets examine how much honor and marks you need for a full set:

Head - Cost: 14,500 Honor 30 AV Marks - (30x15) - 450 mins
Neck - Cost: 15,300 Honor 10 EotS Marks (10x15) - 150 mins
Back - Cost: 9,435 Honor 20 AB Marks (20x15) - 300 mins
Shoulders - Cost: 11250 Honor 20 ABMarks (20x15) - 300 mins
Chest - Cost:14500 Honor 30 AB Marks (30x15) - 450 mins
Wrist: Cost: 11794 Honor 20 WSG Marks - (20x15) - 300 mins
Hands: Cost: 10500 Honor 20 AV Marks - (20x15) - 300 mins
Waist - Cost: 17850 Honor 40 AB Marks - (40x15) - 600 mins
Legs - Cost: 14500 Honor 30 WSG Marks - (30x15) - 450 mins
Feet - Cost: 17850 Honor 40 EotS Marks - (40x15) - 600 mins
Ring1 - Cost: 15,300 Honor 10 AV Marks - (10x15) - 150 mins
Ring2 - Cost: 11934 Honor 10 AV Marks - (10x15) - 150 mins
Trinket: Medallion of the Alliance/Horde - Cost: 16,983 Honor No Marks
Trinket: Battlemaster's **** - Cost: 30,000 Honor 40 AV Marks (40x15) - 600 mins

So, just for the marks, you need (assuming you lose all games, like is assumed by the post saying only leechers get this gear):

You will need to play for: 4800 mins (80 hours).

That EXCLUDES the amount on honor you need for each piece of gear. The average AV loss gives you about 200 honor or so. For the trinket you would need to lose 150 matches (30 000/200). Just one item then goes up to (150x15) - 2250 mins.

I can break it down further but I feel I've made my point. Getting PVP epics is HARD WORK. If you play crappy, you will take freakin AGES to get it. Same as with raiding.

Epics reward effort and time spent. Why should raiders be the only ones rewarded for time spent in the game? It's that elitist garbage that really pisses me off.

And btw, with the up and coming Achievement system, you will actually be rewarded for your efforts in WINNING bg's. If you tag towers, GY's etc. you will have it on your character sheet. So then you will be able to tell who the really useless players are who just lam it out in BG's.
 
Ok but thats where I disagree with you... :rolleyes:

You feel you deserve the reward based on time spent obtaining the items...

I feel the other way... I feel you deserve a reward as an accomplishment mile stone. Meaning you had to do something incredible to get something of a similar value. If the PVP reward items were blue items, I would probably not feel this way about the PVP gear.

Thats why you see 99% of the people in the major faction cities walking in PVP honour gear. You can honestly not tell me you feel proud walking in PVP epic's when there is 300 people next to you with the same items on ?

I am not going to argue about your calculations there, but what I will say.
In my hungover weekend state yesterday I was doing some AV and battlegrounds... was WSG double honour weekend. Granted horde lost most of the AV games... but I made around 20k honour yesterday just from casual PVP'ing in AV + WSG. I raid PVE, and I only PVP when I am bored, so my PVP time is pretty much limited... make no mistake, I love PVP as well. I am already on 75k honour with 100 medals of each, and have all the PVP items bought ( including 4/5 S4 brutal items). It is not hard, really its not hard.

Anyway, dont wanna start a flaming discussion war, but thats just my opinion on PVP honour items.
 
Cloud said:
It's not hard when you play well. That's my point m8 :P
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I will have to agree with you...
In PVP you get about 1 or maybe 2 epics per week. Arena you get about 1 per 2-6 weeks depending on how good you are.
PVE you get about 1 item per week when you just start out in Kara (more if your the only "new" one). Badge rewards are similar to pvp rewards, you can collect badges even through quest rewards, it is all about time and not really skill. So up to T5 pvp and pve have "free" epics. If you want better than that T6 or S4 gear, it actualy require skill.
 
Its simply just to easy to get PVP epics. Yes you can grind kara over and over for badges, BUT... it still requires you to down a boss to get your badge ! Meaning you need to have co-ordination, team work and proper skilled players to obtain that goal of killing the boss.
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While I agree on S1/S2 honour-gear, I disagree on badge gear.
The problem is the level of gear quality buyable buy badges FAR exceeds the difficulty in obtaining those badges. Badge loot supercedes Tier5 and even in some cases, is equivalent to Tier6 loot, and can be acquired by farming Tier4 (or even sub-t4, ala heroics) content? Somethings wrong with that concept.I'm all for the concept behind using tokens to purchase gear rather than relying on the RNG, but it should be at the relevant level. T4 content should drop T4-specific tokens used to buy T4 level loot. Same goes for Tier5, and Tier 6. Simplying requiring MORE of a single token is not sufficient, as that rewards grinding rather than progress and thus is akin to the honour grind, imo.

That said I rely on much badge loot myself to fill in the blanks, to facilitate progress. But it's a case of Use It or Lose It. It's a necessary evil, for me.
 
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@ skurm.... you are 100% correct there. You will see the same thing happened just before TBC came out. They make very good quality items easily accessible to help guilds experience more of the end game raiding environment. The first sign of the expansion being near was when blizzard was "helping" guilds along, by lifting of attunements, then nerfing hard bosses.

Its just a clever way of keeping people hooked. Usually before something is pretty much EOL, they try and spice things up again.

Everything happening now... also happened just before TBC came out.
 
Porno - yup, i know why they're doing it. It's jsut that I don't necessarily agree with their concept. It's not that I'm being elitist, it's just hard to see all your effort, work and time invalidated at the flip of a switch.
But yeah, that's the nature of MMORPG's, i guess.

Pre BC, though, they didnt exactly start handing Naxx level gear out. They opened up HWL gear, but it wasn't exactly Tier3, or even Tier2.

Iirc, Blizz has mentioned they're reworking the badges/tokens concept to be inline with what I mentioned : different types of badges based on the content you're in. Hopefully there won't be any such bypassing of progression milestones. But aye, there's nothing to stop them 'devaluing' or 'unlocking' loot near the end of Wrath's lifecycle, much as what has happened now in BC.

I guess part of my problem with the current status quo, is that 'welfare epixx' really has been an issue for a lot longer than was the case prior to BC. I don't mind them giving casual players a taste of purple fever a few months before the next expansion, but fact is we've had the welfare epixx blues for the past couple months already, and with Wrath still due in late '08 at best, this will continue for a while to come, making all those hardcore raiders sit back and think, 'why bother?'. I know that's how I feel right now, and would rather be levelling an alt than progressing through BT, tbh.
 
Skurm said:
I know that's how I feel right now, and would rather be levelling an alt than progressing through BT, tbh.
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Thats what a lot of guilds did pre-tbc... couple months before the xpac, everything sort of died. Hardly any1 raided, most just made alts/grinded shiny pvp rewards for the xpac
 
Don't really understand why raiders don't want PVP'ers to have epics.

If you wanna PVE, then PVE and get your Tier related rewards. Ppl will still admire your shiny epics, more so if you have T6 as opposed to T4.

If you wanna PVP, then do likewise. Seeing someone run around in S1 gear does obviously not have the same effect as seeing someone in full Brutal gear.

To each their own.
 
Cloud said:
Don't really understand why raiders don't want PVP'ers to have epics.

If you wanna PVE, then PVE and get your Tier related rewards. Ppl will still admire your shiny epics, more so if you have T6 as opposed to T4.

If you wanna PVP, then do likewise. Seeing someone run around in S1 gear does obviously not have the same effect as seeing someone in full Brutal gear.

To each their own.
Click to expand...

It's not that Raiders don't want PvP'ers to have Epics. It's that Raiders don't want anyone getting free epics.

Being able to do BG after BG and lose every single one and yet still buy Epic Gear is the equivalent of spending night after night wiping on a Boss but still getting his loot.
Rather unfair.
The Arena system is a lot better now with the Rating requirements on gear (now that win trading seems to be a thing of the past).
If you see someone in S4 gear he most likely worked hard and knows how to play and therefore deserves that gear.
Lil, Random Scrub in his full S1 most likely doesn't.
 
So then do both if you want the S1/S2 gear so badly lol. Nothing is stopping you. That same gear does not compare in PVE as the actual PVE gear of the same level.

It is an avenue for players who do not or who cannot raid to get good gear to enjoy the game. I don't see that as a problem.
 
Oh and btw - free = gratis, for nothing.

There is nothing in WoW that gives free epics. Please stop using that term or risk looking like an idiot.
 
I always thought there is an easier way to sort out the problem.
Keep PVE items epic and give PVP items another classification like "mythic" or something like that and make them a yellow color.
 
Dusk said:
I always thought there is an easier way to sort out the problem.
Keep PVE items epic and give PVP items another classification like "mythic" or something like that and make them a yellow color.
Click to expand...

Interesting. But then you start running into issues about which gear is PVP and which is PVE as not all PVP gear comes from PVP (see Dory's Embrace).

But its not a bad idea.
 
Well i only pvp. Im not into PVE at all, it does sound fun however i just dont have the time to raid.

I dont really get the point of calling something a "grind" Because as far as im concerned if you see anything in the game as a grind you should play something else. Or try something new in the game. I PvP because i enjoy it. It doesnt really matter to me about the gear i have, or the "freebie epixxs" i will be aquiring.
 
There are two problems with the pvp gear vs pve gear debate.

1 - contrary to popular belief, pvp gear is not that bad for pve. My season 4 gloves, for eg, are in many ways better than my t6 gloves for raiding. Supported correctly with gems and chants, you can do quite well for yourself. A story not too long back covered a pvp guild called PVE Is Hard clad in S3 gear clearing Black Temple. Pvp gear may not be the best available for pve, but it's passable. You can succeed with it on most bosses that arent a race (ala Brutallus). PVE is, largely, more about your ability to stay out of the fire than about having absolutely the best gear available.

2 - however, pve gear is absolute garbage for pvp. Walk into an arena with no resilience and you will get crushed. Period. End of story. I don't care if you've got the reflexes of a 9 year old on crack. You wil lget focused, and you will die, faster than it takes the opposing team to type out 'lol'.

It's this disparity that has me, personally, pissed. Raid gear should strike fear into the hearts of one's opponents. You worked damn hard for it, so you should get at least SOME return on investment outside of raiding. But you don't. Raiders are a free HK in arena, meanwhile pvp'ers in S3 are getting free passes straight into T6 content.

Casuals getting everything handed to them on a platter while raiders get penalised for putting up with all the slog, toil, time and drama assosciated with raiding. Yay for me in my BT/MH gear getting effortlessly ganked while herbing by a rogue in S1. Thanks Blizzard. Thanks for that.
Crap like that would never have happened pre-BC. You saw a guy in Naxx gear in a BG or out in world? You stayed out of his way.

I personally only put on my PVE raid gear in a raid. Otherwise I run around with my welfare epics like every other chop out there.
What the hell, then, is the point of working your tits off for equipment you're never going to use for yourself?

Hey, maybe when Blizzard nerfs raiding to the point we can get a guaranteed epic every couple weeks for an hour's work once a week, I'd be fine with it. Right now though it's obvious that Blizzard's priority lies with keeping all those peeps who are happy running Kara and doing their 10 arena games each week with their resto druid/warrior/rogue buddy, contentedly 'OP'.
 
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Ok Skurm i think you raised some excellent points there, and i must say i never really saw it from the PVE point of view.

I do agree that you should be able to use your PvE gear in the World. Because like you said right now you can walk around with your T6 gear yet some s1 rogue will eat your head off. That doesnt seem very fair to me i must say.
 
1 - "A story not too long back covered a pvp guild called PVE Is Hard clad in S3 gear clearing Black Temple." - I think they wanted to point out that raiders, who think they are God's gift to gaming, are over-emphasizing the difficulty of raiding and thus the power of the gear they should obtain from it.

Once again, if you want PVP items for PVE, you can always just PVP and get them.

2 - "however, pve gear is absolute garbage for pvp" Ahem, Warglaives?!!

But seriously, if you spend all your time in the game doing PVE and obtaining PVE gear, you shouldn't expect to waltz into an arena / BG and be immortal while you destroy everyone. I have seen T6 locks cruising round BG's doing 6-7k shadowbolt crits. They seemed to be enjoying it.

The point is - raiders want their gear to be brilliant for both aspects of the game, even though they are considerably different.

If you are the type of gamer who can complete all the latest raid instances you sure as hell should be able to get an arena team together to get the latest arena gear if you so desire.
 
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