Any point to bg?

[Dusk]

If you are the type of gamer who can complete all the latest raid instances you sure as hell should be able to get an arena team together to get the latest arena gear if you so desire.

However your bank account will hover around 100g most of the time because of the fortunes you spend on respeccing.
*like me *

 

[Skurm]

Yeah. Fortunately I have a solid pvp set(400-odd resilience, 1700 healing) so in my pvp set I'm quite comfortable that I can go out questing/herbing without too much fear of being instagibbed. But -and ive tested it on Isle of Quel Danas- if i slap on my raid gear, it's like a neon light screaming 'Gank me!' lights up over my head.
Maybe some classes have it easier, but for the most part accumulating exclusively PVE gear often turns you into a free HK to all the PVPers wandering around, which is jsut dumb. I don't believe that that should be the case, at all. I remember pvp'ing with my hunter back before BC and every time I saw some guy in a BG in Tier2 or Tier3 I knew I was in for a hard time. Whereas now, I see someone in Tier6 I have no fear whatsoever.

Reslience screwed the entire pve/pvp balance that WoW had going for it before. For many, it was fun to raid for gear so they could pwn face in pvp.
Those days are gone, and in a way, it's a pity. I sure hope they address that in Wrath and make it so that raiders feel less like one-hit wonders. There needs to be some overlap, imo.

 

[Cloud]

Dude, try playing a warrior in the world.

Even with the best available PVP gear, almost any class, including healers, can take you down solo. Warrior's were designed to be "group players" and therefore kinda suck alone.

Go figure that one out and tell me this game is fair

 

[Skurm]

The point is - raiders want their gear to be brilliant for both aspects of the game, even though they are considerably different.

My point is, pvp'ers should have to see the same kind of time investment required to gear up. Yes honour grind is a grind, but it's nothing like the kind of shlep to progress in pve.

And my point is there is some redundancy in having pvp gear. You can grab your Season2 equipment and quite comfortably begin Tier5 pve content. But the reverse is *not* true for PVE'ers. If I step into an arena in Tier5, I *will* get smashed down to the sub 1500's rating and I will *never*, *ever* get to see a single piece of S3 or S4 gear.

So PVP'ers can casually PVP for gear and step into midlevel PVE content and begin progressing. They don't have to go back and start farming heroics and KZ.

Meanwhile PVE'ers have to step into beginning level PVP content and, after having grinded their asses off for PVE gear, start the grind all over again for S2 honour gear to merely stand a chance of progressing in competitive PVP.

This is the gist of my argument, and I don't see how anyone could see it as fair.
What's good for the goose should be good for the gander.

 

[Skurm]

Dude, try playing a warrior in the world.

Even with the best available PVP gear, almost any class, including healers, can take you down solo. Warrior's were designed to be "group players" and therefore kinda suck alone.

Go figure that one out and tell me this game is fair

No look I agree, this game isnt fair 1 on 1 and is built around group dynamic.

Still the point remains. Someone whose focused exclusively on PVE for a long time, then stepping into PVP, is going to get smacked down. But someone whose been PVP'ing a long time, can walk straight into endgame PVE content with his 'welfare' gear.

This imbalance is plain to see. I wouldnt even care that much about people in S3 running T5/T6, if I had the same or just slightly worse kind of chance versus equivalent level PVP gear in arena with my PVE raid epics. But that's not the case. Try walking into a fresh, newly formed 1500 rating arena with raid epics ... might as well go in naked.

 

[Cloud]

My point is, pvp'ers should have to see the same kind of time investment required to gear up. Yes honour grind is a grind, but it's nothing like the kind of shlep to progress in pve.

And my point is there is some redundancy in having pvp gear. You can grab your Season2 equipment and quite comfortably begin Tier5 pve content. But the reverse is *not* true for PVE'ers. If I step into an arena in Tier5, I *will* get smashed down to the sub 1500's rating and I will *never*, *ever* get to see a single piece of S3 or S4 gear.

So PVP'ers can casually PVP for gear and step into midlevel PVE content and begin progressing. They don't have to go back and start farming heroics and KZ.

Meanwhile PVE'ers have to step into beginning level PVP content and, after having grinded their asses off for PVE gear, start the grind all over again for S2 honour gear to merely stand a chance of progressing in competitive PVP.

This is the gist of my argument, and I don't see how anyone could see it as fair.
What's good for the goose should be good for the gander.

And those ppl who casually PVP for gear, they start out with what gear? Quest greens and reputation blues?

Chances are you have a better chance of gaining gear in PVP than the equivalent level player who has done no raiding and who is just starting out with PVP.

Why do you think Blizzard gave out reputation based PVP blues? Exactly for this reason, to give "new" PVP players a fighting chance in PVP.

Just as a side note, before the cheat death nerf, rogues were running around with double warglaives and half S3 gear, half T6 gear for both set bonuses. Those rogues ripped ppl apart in arenas. Now how was that fair to the players who spent all their time and effort in arenas, only to see a PVE raid geared rogue beat them to a pulp?

It works both ways.

 

[Cloud]

Still the point remains. Someone whose focused exclusively on PVE for a long time, then stepping into PVP, is going to get smacked down. But someone whose been PVP'ing a long time, can walk straight into endgame PVE content with his 'welfare' gear.

Look m8, you know as well as I do that a person who has done only PVP and never stepped into a raid will get his ass handed to him by the trash mobs, never mind the bosses, of end-game raids.

Unless that person slots into a guild with other seasoned raiders, he will suck big time. Now take a group of S2 geared players, plonk them in T5 content and watch them wipe over, and over, and over again.

Unless the above mentioned group has experience or an extraordinarily good raid leader, they will fail and fail hard.

The earlier example of the S3 geared players clearing BT is not strictly a good comparison as those players had obviously experienced the BT encounters in one way or another or have raided in the past.

 

[Skurm]

And those ppl who casually PVP for gear, they start out with what gear? Quest greens and reputation blues?

Chances are you have a better chance of gaining gear in PVP than the equivalent level player who has done no raiding and who is just starting out with PVP.

Why do you think Blizzard gave out reputation based PVP blues? Exactly for this reason, to give "new" PVP players a fighting chance in PVP.

That argument kind of defeats itself, PVE'ers also have to start out with quest greens and blues. It's either that or - irony! - grind BG's for welfare epixx. Lawl.

Morseo the new blue rep pvp gear handed to pvpers? Again, it was yet another stepping stone given to pvpers. Where is the PVE'ers version of the same? Oh, sorry, you have to be a crafter or grind to exalted with who knows how many different factions and grind instances hoping for the RNG to smile upon you. Meanwhile the pvpers can buy theirs at honored with 3 lousy factions. Which they'll probably ding merely by questing while levelling.

So yes, it does work both ways. Or rather it should. You see at one stage pvp'ers had to grind some pve for pvp gear. Rogues would grind KZ in the hopes of getting Malchazeen, much like a Holy Pally would run arenas to get his Gladiator's Salvation.
Instead today, they ding 70, buy their honour gear and step into pvp. Like, the same day. No grind needed. Then they go /afk in the cave for a time - they dont even actually have to _do_ anything, and a few weeks later they have their S2 set. And then they go do their 10 arena games a week with their resto druid buddy and BAM - they're pro.
Meanwhile PVE'ers are _ALSO_ grinding BG's to complement their pve set, and spending hours at a time every night in Karazahn and heroics actually working for their loot - and if they fail, they get nothing, while Mr Cave gets his XXX honour guaranteed. And maybe after a few months of that theyre ready to step into SSC and do it all again.

The time and effort investment for same level equipment is completely disproportionate.

Look m8, you know as well as I do that a person who has done only PVP and never stepped into a raid will get his ass handed to him by the trash mobs, never mind the bosses, of end-game raids.

Maybe, but it won't be a fault of gear, it'll be a fault of personal experience only.

If you took a hardcore pvper, took away all his Season3/Season4 gear and gave him T6 epics instead, he'd get creamed. Excepting some classes like Sub rogues pre Cheat Death nerf. And maybe resto druids. But these two classes are completely OP anyway, and not good examples to use.

But you take away a seasoned PVE'ers T6 and hand him S3/S4? He'll still manage. He might not put up the same numbers, but he'll manage.

My point is gear disparity and the comparitive ease with which it can be acquired. Not individual ability. That's always going to be entirely subjective, naturally.

 

[Cloud]

Morseo the new blue rep pvp gear handed to pvpers? Again, it was yet another stepping stone given to pvpers. Where is the PVE'ers version of the same? Oh, sorry, you have to be a crafter or grind to exalted with who knows how many different factions. Meanwhile the pvpers can buy theirs at honored with 3 lousy factions. Which they'll probably ding merely by questing while levelling.

Oh, and these PVP reputation items cannot be used for PVE lol? You get what you play for, so if you only grind to honored to start PVP, you get a fair chance, but you'll still have a hard time in PVP, likewise in PVE.

If you took a hardcore pvper, took away all his Season3/Season4 gear and gave him T6 epics instead, he'd get creamed. Excepting some classes like Sub rogues pre Cheat Death nerf. And maybe resto druids. But these two classes are completely OP anyway, and not good examples to use.

But you take away a seasoned PVE'ers T6 and hand him S3/S4? He'll still manage. He might not put up the same numbers, but he'll manage.

My point is gear disparity and the comparitive ease with which it can be acquired. Not individual ability. That's always going to be entirely subjective, naturally.

Ok look. If it's so easy to get PVP gear and it is so good for raiding, apparently, why don't you just PVP till you get the gear you want, and then go raid for the *gasp* fun of it. Why does PVE gear have to be good for PVP?

I think what you are looking for is some kind of stat like resilience but for PVE. So that players who PVP cannot take that gear into raids. Is that right, would that settle the issue?

Because before resilience, you absolutely HAD to raid to stand any kind of chance in PVP. Raiders were running round two shotting others laughing and claiming that they had madd skillz, but actually, they were just grossly advantaged due to their gear.

Now those who PVP and choose to focus on PVP get their reward in the form of resilience gear. Raiders are just pissed they can't steamroll non-raiders anymore. I'm afraid that you're just going to have to PVP like the rest of us to get PVP gear or accept the fact that when you raid and only raid, you cannot come and PVP and expect to be as OP as you were pre-TBC.

 

[Cloud]

Just thought I would add something to the mix here.

Even though you say PVP gear is good enough for raiding, bear in mind that not all PVP'ers even want to raid.

The fact that raiders want to PVP is their own decision. They have exactly the same opportunity to gather gear for themselves for this purpose as PVP'ers do.

On the flipside, if it wasn't for resilience, every player who wanted to PVP would then be forced to raid. And to raid, you have to get into a guild, abide by their laws, play certain times, attend so many raids and all that hogwash. I know some ppl enjoy that, and its fine.

The thing is - you can join a BG on your own, play with random ppl, have fun and be rewarded for it. The gear you obtain will be suited for that aspect of the game. If resilience gear was not available through PVP or at all, anyone joining a BG would instantly be rolled over by raid geared players.

It is obvious that Blizzard feels the same way, seeing that they introduced PVP gear in the first place. PVP'ers had to endure raiders smacking them down for the first few years of WoW. Thank God that is not the case today.

 

[Skurm]

Oh, and these PVP reputation items cannot be used for PVE lol?

Heh. Now you're making my argument for me.
That Blizzard gives us relatively easy-to-acquire pvp gear which pve'ers end up using as a stopgap.

Ok look. If it's so easy to get PVP gear and it is so good for raiding, apparently, why don't you just PVP till you get the gear you want, and then go raid for the *gasp* fun of it. Why does PVE gear have to be good for PVP?

Actually, that is exactly what I did. When S1 became available in December last year, I spent around 3 or 4 weeks grinding honour for my S1 set, mh, rings, nonset epics etc. Our guild stepped into Karazahn for the first time a few weeks later with many people who had done the same, and we cleared it that same week, for the first time ever.
This would *never* have been possible prior to S1 gear becoming honour-farmable. No way, no how.
That S1 gear served me well until i 'upgraded' with some T4 and KZ epics and we started doing SSC. The only reason I never stooped to 'farming' S2 was because i DETEST arena and, at the time, you couldnt get S2 via honour. Now you can, and I wouldnt even really bother with KZ/Gruul/Mag now if I were starting out raiding, I'd just farm my S2 and 'outgear' SSC/TK.

Because before resilience, you absolutely HAD to raid to stand any kind of chance in PVP. Raiders were running round two shotting others laughing and claiming that they had madd skillz, but actually, they were just grossly advantaged due to their gear.

I understand your position. I really do.
But fixing one problem by overcompensating is not a solution. Back then it was a case of raiders having the best pvp gear. Now they have the worst. That's not a fix. That's trying to fix a wrong with another wrong.
I, as a raider, also enjoy pvp. But raiding and prepping for raiding, takes up a lot of my time. So now I want a free pass too. It's only fair, right? Granted, Blizzard did this, to an extent, by allowing us to trade in Tier tokens for Season gear, but that still means we have to farm twice the amount of gear and spend dkp to get stuff. Why can't my raid gear be, say, a tier below equivalent season gear for the purposes of pvp, much like how pvp gear is the equivalent of a tier below same level Tiered gear? Instead, raid gear is like, probably worse than those honour blues for the purposes of pvp.

If theyre going to make pvp gear for pvp then make it exclusively for pvp. Make pvp gear as viable for pve content as pve gear is for pvp, and I'd be happy.

But noe, that would upset all the casuals who want to raid KZ and Zul Aman in their Merciless gear, and we wouldn't want that. Fact is raiders are a minority these days, and Blizzard couldn't really give a crap about us anymore. Testament to the fact the downsizing of raids from 40 to 25, to 10, and in Wrath all the raids being 10mannable. They throw us the occasional, ridiculously difficult bone like Sunwell Plateu to bash our heads against while casuals are just rerolling whatever fotm is the cheesiest way to get a solid rating and rake in the Brutal set. I could probably relevel a resto druid and gear him up in full season 2 and begin soaking up the S4 in the time it would take us to progress to Illidan let alone start Sunwell.
Yay Equivalence.

The days of the hardcore pve raider in WoW may be drawing to a close. I for one am not willing to break my ass raiding for gear that is only relevant in raids.

 

[Cloud]

Skurm, I understand you want PVE gear to have some kind of exclusivity to warrant the effort that goes into it.

But the fact that you get Tier gear a month or more before the next available arena season shows that Blizzard at least understands that part of the equation.

To be completely honest, I see guys running round in ZA gear and I think to myself, wow, that looks cool. And they probably do mean dmg, or are very effective healers in PVE. Even more so if I see Tier 6+ geared players. I find myself checking out their gear and items, as these are really alien to me for the most part. I find it intriguing to see what gear is available outside PVP and am also admittedly a bit sad that I don't have more time to take part in it.

That same player can also then just whip out his PVP gear which he perhaps grinded out with his guildies and go have fun in BG's.

There is still a lot of exclusivity to raiding. Players understand the trouble raiders go through to get said gear. There is a lot of admiration for max tier geared players.

I have four 70's, as I mentioned earlier - my mage has the spellfire set and also the S1 set. My hunter is S1 with some blues mixed in and my shammy has basically quest items and one or two S2. The warrior is 4/5 S3 with the wep. I enjoy playing with all these characters, and I don't get stomped in PVP (cept the damn shammy lol ) cause I have been PVP'ing for years and there is adequate gear available.

Yes, I don't really get admired standing in S1/S2 in IF, but I don't care as I enjoy the game. I don't want to raid, I don't like all the fuss that goes into it and I don't always have the time. On the other hand, I often got whispered about my gear on my warrior when the gear was still relevant, and that made me feel good since I had to really focus to get it.

What it really comes down to is players preference. Yes, I agree that if you go into PVP with full PVE gear you get smashed and that is not completely fair. But just remember that you can obtain PVP gear as well. A solo player cannot get T6 gear, and that, perhaps, is / was the real injustice of this game.

 

[Skurm]

I understand you want PVE gear to have some kind of exclusivity to warrant the effort that goes into it

No. Not exclusivity. Viability is what I'd settle for.

I don't want a return to the old days of raiders oneshotting 'noobs'. I was one of those on the receiving end and I'll tell ya, it wasn't fun.

But the current situation is a joke. Raid gear is worthless for pvp. Worthless. Garbage.

I feel resilience polarized the community and was a mistake on Blizzard's part. Instead of implementing resilience and creating this 'us vs them' divide, Blizzard could have retuned abilities, retuned pve, and retuned pvp gear to give pvp'ers a slight advantage over raid geared people in a pvp environment, but not so much so that theres this absolutely massive chasm between the two.

All that raiders really want is to have that gear they spent months upon months of repeated 4-hour long sessions getting, be actually worth something outside of a raid.
It really is no fun at all going through all the k@k that comes with raiding and then not even being able to defend yourself on an equal basis against a kid who got his loot by installing Wowglider and watching Heroes while 'playing' AV.

 

[Cloud]

The solution is simple. Get PVP gear (as you have done) and voila, problem solved.

You can mix in pieces of you PVE gears for added flavor, and then it isn't as useless as you described.

If you get beat up by a kid who AFK'ed through BG's, you're either a very bad player or said AFK'er is a naturally gifted PVP'er.

PVE gear is not garbage. My brother plays a pala on Stormscale (who has gotten gladiator rank for the last two seasons) and grinded out 150 badges to get the legs. They are considered "PVE" items, but in his opinion, this particular item is awesome for this current build.

To be good at both aspects of the game, you have to take part in both PVE and PVP. I doubt Blizzard will change this anytime soon.

 

[Boomrooker]

I am getting my as kicked hard in Heriocs with my S1 pvp gear using them with pve sockets to tank.

Feral Druid

 

[Voicy]

As one of the most respected wow players in our clan described it:

Some background information that might help ...

PVP sets adds resillience to you as a player, this however is not very useable in Raids as you want hit rating and crit. You might have also noticed that PVP (S-sets) gear will normally give more stamina as well, while PVE is focusing on the "longer" fights that you will find on instances.

As for Boomrooker's feral ...

The PVE (T-sets) sets are best built through heroic runs. This has an added benefit of reputation and BOJ' that will enable you to get some nice gear.

As an example; my druid is running around with 3 sets. 1 PVP that loads my resillience rating, 1 tanking set and 1 dps set.

Thanks for the input Gassie !

 

[Skurm]

Ag this is going in circles. I don't think you get me. All I'm saying is equivalent level rewards for equivalent level of effort. For example, let me zone in solo to a raid and wipe on bosses and if I do it enough, I still get my T5/T6 token or badges or w/e, y'know?

But anyway, whatever blows your hair back. :|

 

[Cloud]

let me zone in solo to a raid and wipe on bosses and if I do it enough, I still get my T5/T6 token or badges or w/e, y'know?

Ok, now apply that logic to PVP:

Let me zone in solo to Alterac Valley and wipe on bosses and if I do it enough, I still get my S2 gear or weapons or w/e, y'know?

 

[Skurm]

Let me zone in solo to Alterac Valley and wipe on bosses and if I do it enough, I still get my S2 gear or weapons or w/e, y'know?

Well yes.

Yes you do.

 

[Cloud]

You can solo Drek / Van?