Apple owners richer than Windows users

[d0b33]

edit: no wait.. i`m wrong again....
they use LINUX
http://news.cnet.com/2100-1001-983898.html

Yep... when you need to to do some hardcore work you use linux

Windows and OSX are my toy OS's.

 

[Drunkard #1]

Now you're being unfair and weaseling your way out of it.

The term PC includes notebooks too. PC is not synonymous with desktop, it means PERSONAL COMPUTER and not a mainframe. In fact Mac Pros and Dell Xeon based workstations are PCs too.

I wasn't referring to the general term, I was referring to a specific machine. Notebooks are a popular choice, but desktops can't be ignored. I also question whether workstations should be classed as PCs. They're built more like servers and used very differently to desktops and notebooks. One of your own sources agrees with me.

1. I don't want to use Windows when Mac OSX comes with everything an average household needs, perhaps add R1400 for iWorks - the equivalent of MS Office Home Edition. But a Vista PC doesn't come with a word processor either.

Everything runs smoothly until, one day, when you're least expecting it, you find a program that needs Windows, like Winbox, the Mikrotik configuration utility, and a dozen other programs which I use.

2. If you want to run Windows in Bootcamp, getting OEM Windows is acceptable and not illegal. OEM or DSP Windows will cost the same on PC.

Learn something new every day.

Despite Core charging more, Apple Mac books are similar in price to similarly spec'ed quality made notebooks. The same goes for Mac book Pros and the same can be said for Mac Pros - when compared to Dell and HP solutions.
At the same time iMacs - remembering they include a high quality 24inch - ie true 8 bit panel not the 6bit junk Acer and Samsung sell - are similar in cost.

Who's weaselling out now? It's very easy to say that every notebook that outperforms your Macbooks and Macbook Pros is crap, but that's just not true. I know there are some cheap and nasty notebooks out there, but they sell well, so there's obviously a market for them. I'd tend to trust anything that says Thinkpad, or the equivalent corporate level products from Dell or HP. And being corporate level notebooks, unlike Macbook (Pro)s they come equipped for corporate users, with options like intergrated 3G and fully encrypted hard drives.

iMacs and MacMinis are even more of a rip-off. They're underspeced, overpriced and can't be upgraded or repaired easily. As for having 8-bit panels: I searched for 20 minutes for someone who cared, and couldn't find anyone. The best I could find was "If your monitor's specs say 16.7 million colours, you've probably got an 8-bit panel". So as it tuns out, my year old, R 3000 Philips is probably 8-bit. Whoop-de-****ing-do. I never cared before, and I still don't. However, I do care that it's a matt screen, making it more useable than your iMacs and Apple displays.

In summary, my R 10 000 beige box with a Philips 24" monitor will outperform any iMac or MacMini for less than half the cost.

It is acceptable per the EULA to install it on a bootcamp partition because it is a clean partition. Perhaps they don't want you to run it in a virtualised environment such as under VM Ware Fusion or Parallels but installing it in bootcamp is acceptable as per EULA because the System is running in REAL mode.

I never knew. Doesn't change the facts, your average Mac user needs to buy two OSs, while your average Windows user only buys one.

I own a Mac Pro and I'm just explaining how I'd have paid a similar amount of money if I went with Dell or HP.

I bought a beige box and I'd have needed two tubs of vasaline if I'd bought a remotely competitive Mac

I gave you a comparison of a Sony Vaio vs MB.



Price differentials are similar. On a spec per spec basis including WEIGHT, battery life, build quality and screen resolution you'll find Mac book (pros) are similar in price to quality branded machines. What you won't find is heavy, cheaply made low range Lenovos, Dells and HPs and those machines are not well built. The only well built machines that can compare to Apple are
Sony Vaio, higher end Lenovo (IBM >> Lenovo), NEC and the Pansasonic Let's Note range of notebooks.

What a cop-out. There are dozens of good quality branded notebooks out there costing half the price of a Macbook (pro). Saying that they're all junk is just bull. If Apples are really built to the level you brag about, then I've got to wonder if they aren't overbuilt. An average corporate notebook will easily last 5 years, after which it's probably not powerful enough to be useful. How long do you expect your Apples to last? 50 years?

Utter nonsense. Macs are bought by people who want to use their PC to get something done, then turn it off and forget about it. They don't want to have to maintain a PC - run antivirus, run internet security app, run defraggers, registry cleaners, anti-spyware, mess with settings, etc.
The Mac comes with a great video editor, great photo editor, fully functional DVD player and if you buy iWork you have a full suite for word processing/accounts/etc or use Open Office or buy MS Office for Mac.

No viruses, get that, no viruses unless you download WAREZ and authorise it to run. No viruses from USB sticks. No viruses from email attachments which just execute or execute by confusion (pretend to be a JPG file). No rootkits. No keyloggers to steal your data. No worries.

You must really go out of your way to stuff up your Windows box. I use a free anti virus, which updates itself daily. That's it. No extra firewall, no registry cleaners, no anti-spyware, no messing with settings, and I de-frag every 5 or 10 years.

I download a LOT of crap, and yet the last virus I got was Stoned (yes, the 1992 classic). How do you get so many?

The OS is easy to use. It doesn't bother you with rubbish balloons and endless error messages to tell you that the USB stick works or that you're running low on disk space despite having clicked the X to close it 10 times already. Oh and it doesn't steal your focus of attention. If you're typing and a dialog box pops up, it won't make you stop typing. No need to learn Windows jargon. No blue screens.
No red screens. No pushing of updates and forcing of Reboot every 5 minutes.

I really don't know what you're doing wrong. My HDD is 80% free, and when it gets full I'll add another one. Unlike an Apple user who'd probably be without his computer for 6 weeks if he needed an extra drive.

I haven't seen a blue screen on my current PC, or a red one, and none of my updates are not set to push.

You're just bitter.

Macs are easier to use. Safer. Usually come with everything you need (just dl Open Office). They are well spec'ed machines and the only sin Apple is committing is not making cheap machines with relatively low specs and poor build quality. And until you've handled a Let's Note or a NEC Versa or an old ThinkPad good build quality is not the junk I see in Incredible Connection, except for Mac books/MBPs.

Disclaimer:

I own a chipped, cracked chassis, paint rubbed off, dead screen R29,000 Acer Notebook (Paid R15,000 in Singapore for this high end notebook in 2006 while it cost R29,000 here, TravelMate 8104). I also own a Panasonic Let's Note and a NEC VersaPro UltraLite. These things are built beautifully and are rock solid. In contrast most Acer, Dell, HP, and basic Lenovo is poor build quality, even most Vaios feel like plastic which will fall apart with a mild knock. My Acer didn't even suffer a knock, it chipped, paint wore off, screen died on its own and a treat my stuff with kit gloves.

I'm not bitter at all. My ass hasn't been pounded simultaneously by Steve Jobs and Dick van Spaandonk. I use a superior machine that outperforms anything Apple sells for 3 times the price. My portable is a R 2000 Acer Aspire One, which I love, and my R 40 000 Compaq (like you, I got it at a bargin price, back then - R 19 500) from 2001 is still running fine. But it needs new batteries, I plan to send the battery off to be repacked, while still using the machine. Unlike the owners of the new Macbooks, who would need to send their entire machine away, for God knows how long, and enjoy another ass pounding from Steve and Dick when they get it back.

 

[Keeper]

Yep... when you need to to do some hardcore work you use linux

Windows and OSX are my toy OS's.

afaik the designers use unix as well - what's that, a form of linux too?

 

[d0b33]

With a mac you're paying for innovation, look at the powerbook 100 released in 1991...

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/5/58/Powerbook_100_pose.jpg
First laptop with modern features such as making a palm rest part of the notebook and laptops are still made like this. The PB100 was built in 1991 yet looks as modern as any netbook today.

afaik the designers use unix as well - what's that, a form of linux too?

Unix is Unix, linux is somewhat inspired by it.

 

[Keeper]

Unix is Unix, linux is somewhat inspired by it.

ah ok...

still though - I reckon the guys at ILM and Pixar still use Windows as well.
just because they RENDER on linux doesn't mean they DESIGN on linux..

didn't even know maya can run on a mac

 

[PeterCH]

I wasn't referring to the general term, I was referring to a specific machine. .

I was speaking in general and I too gave you a specific example.

Workstations are different - they use dual processor motherboards and ECC FB RAM - on the Mac Pro at least. However, such RAM is pretty cheap, go to
www.transintl.com to see prices.

In effect without bs'ng around the issue Macs and PCs come at similar price ranges for similar specs. Apple just doesn't make cheap machines. I personally wouldn't touch a cheap machine because I've been burned on them before and I prefer to have something nice to work on than a R29,000 computer which will fall apart after 2 years of casual home use.

the Mikrotik configuration utility, and a dozen other programs which I use.

Well you're different. Most people don't need specialised programs, and that works both ways. Shake and FCP - both professional apps which are used by Hollywood, the BBC and CNN for example are only available on the Mac.

And being corporate level notebooks, unlike Macbook (Pro)s they come equipped for corporate users, with options like intergrated 3G and fully encrypted hard drives.

And you can encrypt the hard drive with better protection using the Mac version of True Crypt.

They're underspeced, overpriced and can't be upgraded or repaired easily. As for having 8-bit panels:

I have a cousin in Paris who writes, edits and publishes books - some sell on Amazon.fr on an "overpriced iMac". Sure he could have saved a few Euros and used a crappy, virus ridden quad core 16GB computer to do less, but he's making money and having fun. The iMac paid for itself many times.

Secondly few PC users actually manage to upgrade their systems. It never really works out in real life.

Yes 8-bit is noticeable. If you do any photo editing or colour correction for video you'd want at least 8 bits of display. Secondly, even watching DVD content, you can tell when a display is true 8 bit or 6 bit and dithering. The latter look really ugly.

your average Mac user needs to buy two OSs,

Not true. The average Mac user does not need to buy anything. They have a good video editor, good picture editor, a spell checker, dictionary with thesaurus, a music player, fully functional DVD player and if they just buy either iWork they can have great Office Suite, they can buy MS Office or use one of 4-5 flavours of Open Office for Mac for free.

while your average Windows user only buys one.

And sits with viruses and trojans.

There are dozens of good quality branded notebooks out there costing half the price of a Macbook (pro).

You will not find comparable features in 'branded' notebooks of half price of Mac book pro. Yes you can buy a Celeron Laptop for R4000 from Esquire weighing 3kg with 2h battery life and a very low res screen in a very low contrast display. Of course that's acceptable too. However, if you use your machine to make money or prefer to have something which works so you can get your work done and return to your wife/girlfriend/children/family/hobbies/etc instead of messing with rubbish Microsoft concepts, a Mac is for you.

No extra firewall, no registry cleaners, no anti-spyware, no messing with settings, and I de-frag every 5 or 10 years.

Because you are clued up. Most users - and I have many friends, in fact most are parents of my friends who call me and ask how to fix stuff - get rid of viruses and have their slow PC work fast again. These aren't stupid people either, they have Masters degrees from universities - but they struggle with PCs. You know with online banking and internet shopping it is so easy to get pwned and have a keylogger upload your credit card number to a rogue website. It is so easy for malware to do that on Windows when you're not a clued up user. On a Mac, users are much safer. You tell them to never authorise anything unless it's on a strict list of things - eg Disk being scanned and errors repaired or a new purchased or FOSS program is being installed.

I download a LOT of crap, and yet the last virus I got was Stoned (yes, the 1992 classic). How do you get so many?

You've been lucky. Every time I take a USB to the printers and this also goes for my dad or friends, we always get viruses on our sticks from perfectly functioning Windows boxes. He recently had an infection on his corporate multinational issued laptop with numerous safety features from Cisco and McAfee. I don't get viruses myself, but I have 3 different apps to protect my Winbox.

...my updates are not set to push.

You're clued up and you disabled them. Most Windows users are not and rightfully it should not be their problem. The IT industry should work for the consumer and not vice versa. With Microsoft Windows the consumer has to be an IT expert of sorts to be safe. On the Mac you're almost always safe, unless you're a script kiddie and visit Warez sites to download pirated stuff or run keygenz and crackz to crack shareware - occasionally 1 (so far 1) may have a trojan horse (one for Mac that is). There may be more in the future but if your family member does not surf for warez, they will be safe.

I'm not bitter at all. My ass hasn't been pounded simultaneously by Steve Jobs and Dick van Spaandonk.

I don't care for Steve. I like Woz but seriously, I'm not a fanboy. I have a Mac and I have Windows machines, but the Mac is superior to Windows. It is just so much easier to use and I grew up with PCs - from 1991 I've been using a PC - XT then a 286 then a 386 all the way to the quad Xeon and Core 2 Duos and Atoms now. I pity users who did not do computer science at high school or do IT degrees or who do not have friends/family who are clued up and must use Windows.

I'm typing this on a PC but Mac Pro is shared by me and someone else and it works great.

I use a superior machine that outperforms anything Apple sells for 3 times the price.

Not sure how you rate performance but your machine does not outperform Mac Pros. Secondly it won't outperform a Mac Mini if all those cores sit idling while your program and operating system fight for control of your PC with all the malware and nonsense of Windows. It all comes down to what you do with your machine - not the CPU speed. A talented person can use a Celeron to do something great while a non-talented oaf (and I'm not suggesting you're one) with an 4.1GHz machine with 8 cores will not make anything decent with it except play Crysis in 120fps. Still its great when the talented person has an OS and application which co-operates with him and allows him to focus on the actual work and not on the tool. The computer is after all a tool for most people. It should be intuitive, safe, easy and not get in your way. It should just work the way a car works and in modern cars you only need to put in the petrol - the service will check oil, change filters, tell you when you need new tires or brakes etc.

My portable is a R 2000 Acer Aspire One, which I love, and my R 40 000 Compaq (like you, I got it at a bargin price, back then - R 19 500) from 2001 is still running fine.

Nice but my Acer TM8104 is now sitting as a backup machine. Thanks to cheap commodity PCs - of course this PC cost an arm and a leg in SA - even in SG it was expensive - R15,000!!! My 2006 Mac Pro running Snow Leopard is running great, no issues, easy to replace a HD, it has a 4 caddy system, no lose wires, easy to add DIMMS, etc. Everything just works. I was even able to boot Mac OSX from a USB connected HDD even when I connected one by mistake. I was quite surprised.

Unlike the owners of the new Macbooks, who would need to send their entire machine away,

Now there is one thing we agree on. Non-user replaceable batteries suck but it is possible to replace them yourself if one is willing to endanger the warranty. Still MBPs have the best battery life in the industry - they really deliver those 8-9 hours of battery life in real world conditions, not with screen turned off and CPU idling at 100MHz and iStores (Maybe not in SA) should be able to backup your disk, replace your battery and return your device very quickly.

The other thing which sucks is that Apple did away with the ExpressCard slot on most MBPs. That was a good slot - video makers who use Sony's XDCAMs could download at full speed from SxS memory cards which is the video memory card format for Sony's XDCAM cameras such as the PMW-EX1. Now they have to either connect the camera by USB or buy a R2000 Sony USB2ExpressCard adapter as all other adapters don't work.

I should also tell you that Apple have great software. Final Cut Studio 3 (I still have 2) costs less than Adobe Production Suite and is superior to it. It contains a program called Color which only a few years ago cost $10,000 when purchased alone-- it was owned by a different company back then.
Shake - a video compositing program for Mac and Linux goes for R4500, a render only license used to cost $8,000 or more just 3-4 years ago. Apple also includes manuals with their products. I purchased FCS 2.0 from ToolFarm (upgrade) and they delivered the box full of manuals, about 6kg of them. I purchase Adobe Photoshop CS4 for Mac (standard version) and there was only a DVD in the box - no manuals.

Leopard and Snow Leopard are cheap to upgrade or buy. They also don't call home. You can even buy the upgrade and use that to install on a new system (formatted Tiger). It won't even ask for a Leopard disk.

A 3 user license of Leopard or Snow Leopard is like $199. What's the price for 3 licenses of Vista Ultimate again? Oh yes no Pro, business, home, premium, ultimate, basic versions either - all comes in one version.

 

[snidge]

Wrong question

Perhaps the question should read:"Are there more Mac than Windows users at Test Matches?-or conversely:are there more Test Matches than Mac or Window users.If so,why?Do not write on both sides of the paper simultaneously.
And speaking of John Coltrane,is it only me that refuses to do business with any company that uses the word "solutions"in their advertising/title/anywhere??

 

[Drunkard #1]

PeterCH, here's my price/spec comparison.

Mac mini - R 7500 - 10 500
vs
KitchenAid KTT261 Ultra Power Plus 2-Slice Toaster - $ 100 (R 750)

Winner: The toaster gets it, with more processing power, RAM, being more useful. All at a tenth of the price of a MacMini

iMac 24" - R 20 000 (excl Windows, which makes it about as useful as a chocolate teapot.)
vs
Beige box 24" R 1290 (MB) + 1048 (CPU) + 2x427 (RAM) + 751 (HDD) + 199 (DVD) + 982 (GFX) + 467 (case) + 272 (KB) + 181 (mouse) + 3085 (screen) + 1366 (Windows) = R 10 495

Winner: The beige box gets it with a bigger hard drive, more USB ports, two usable firewire 400 ports (not one useless 800 port) a more compatible OS, a usable matt screen, and costs a bit more than HALF the price of the Mac. It's using top quality components (confirmed by personal experience), is more easily expanded and can be quickly repaired after a lightning strike (confirmed by personal experience.)

Macbook Pro 15" 2.53 Ghz - R 21 000 (excl Windows)
vs
Lenovo Thinkpad T 400 14.1" (NM355ZA) R 20 600

Winner: While the Macbook may seem to offer a bit of competition at first glance, it wilts when you look at the details. The Lenovo wins because of it's faster processor with more cache, faster FED hard drive, built in 3G, modem and fingerprint reader, dedicated graphics memory, readable matt display and superior 3 year warranty. To be honest, an additional docking station (R 900) is required to output DVI.

Mac Pro - not a PC, and not relevant to a comparison of home or office drone or corporate road warrior computers.

There are three comparisons showing how Apples are underspeced, overpriced and inferior. Macs are niche machines which can't compete in the cold light of day. They rely on "soft" comparisons to fool people into buying their designer gear, but in reality they only sell on style. Apple products have more in common with Gucci or Louis Vuitton than Lenovo, Dell or HP ie: all flash and no substance.

And this month my Mikrotik allowed me to download 25 gigs (so far) of local um distros while still having full international internet access and stopping malicious attacks on every connected machine. Every South African household with more than one computer should have one.

 

[PeterCH]

iMac 24" - R 20 000 (excl Windows, which makes it about as useful as a chocolate teapot.)

I have better things to do than argue with you but I please get of your high horse and explain to me why I need Windows?

I am able to edit photos in Adobe PS CS4 for Mac or iPhoto or GIMP or Aparture.
I am able to edit video and render effects in Final Cut Studio 2 for Mac or Adobe Production Suite for Mac.
I am able to rip DVDs in the free MacTheRipper (and other apps).
I am able to encode video from DVD in the free Handbrake (and other apps).
I am able to create MKV video files easily in MKVCreator/o Editor for Mac (and other apps).
I am able to do everything Nero does including burn BD with Roxio Toast (and other apps).
I am able to word process in MS Office for Mac, OpenOffice (different flavours) and iWorks.
I am able to create slideshows easily in Fantastico.
I am able to render sophisticated video effects in Apple Shake for Mac.
I am able to Skype, use MSN/ICQ/AIM in a variety of applications.
I am able to recover corrupted data on all partitions using Drive Genius Recovery Wizard.
I am able to organise pictures using the included iPhoto, use Apple Aparture (not available for Windows) or Adobe Bridge (native Mac OSX app).
I am able to read NTSC natively, and write to it with a cheap app called MacDrive.
I am able to use Drive Genius to do anything Acronis Partition Manager is able to do as well as repair complex data errors/disk errors.
I am able to clone disks for free including OS and boot sectors using Carbon Cloner for Mac.
I am able to create PDF files natively without any additional software.
I am able to use HP, Epson and Canon scanners with Mac OSX software (included) and drivers.
I am able to print on any printer with downloadable or included drivers.
I am able to connect any camera from an ancient 2001 Canon to the latest
Sony PMW-EX1.
I am able to run hundreds of Mac OSX native games.
I can use MS Office Excel or iWork.
I can do presentation in KeyNote or MS Office.

If I want, I can buy DSP Windows - it is LEGAL, no matter what you think and run the odd app there I can use it with Bootcamp or with Parallels/VMWare Fusion or with OSS alternatives (Free).

I really don't have a reason, even if I wanted to run Windows. I can do everything natively on the Mac.

As for Lenovo and 3G a dongle for 3G is cheap. Apple is due for refresh of their machines soon and you'll see them outperform Windows machines in terms of hardware - ie Apple has fewer refresh cycles but when they do they have superior specs. Even that, a Mac running Mac OSX with a slightly slower CPU is still faster than Vista/7 and you can do more on it with less stress. No-one else boasts real world Apple MBP battery performance. In fact it's not even very good under Windows on the same MBP.

A few years ago the fastest Windows Vista laptop was a Mac Book Pro.
http://gizmodo.com/317060/macbook-pro-is-the-fastest-windows-vista-notebook

I still don't know why I need to use Windows. Please tell me why I would want to buy Windows - and be like an MS fanboy and pay R4700 for Vista Upgrade and then next year buy Win 7? Then in 2 years spend R6000 on Win8?

What benefits does Windows have that Mac OSX does not? Other than the proprietory stuff (CAD/CAE)? I don't do CAD/CAE. I'm not a (real) engineer.

You sound very bitter man. Go check out a Mac Book Pro, try it out and you'll see its a superior machine. And please don't quote Lenovo. Lenovo are a far cry from the original IBM ThinkPads. If you want a real PC go and buy yourself a $4,000 Panasonic Let's Note. Those are high class machines but Lenovo will never approach that class. Let's Note is No 1 business/corporate notebook in Japan and those guys abuse their machines and want top performance. Lenovo is a Communist Chinese company and their stuff doesn't compare to Japanese built
NEC and Panasonic notebooks. Supporting Lenovo is supporting the bad guys but even that's not a reason why Lenovo sucks.