Are EVs actually a socialist plot 😂

[Jet-Fighter7700]

You do realise this modular utopian future you dream of, will result in a completely compromised vehicle that would be terrible at all those things.

There’s a real reason why certain types of cars have particular wheelbases, weight balances, suspension balances, the size and type of wheels and tyres fitted etc. As practical as a modular skateboard base may be in some applications, at making a do it all car, they will be terrible.

Cars right now are as good as they have ever been as well in many way, because of decades of innovation and development. They are the way they are, because certain set ups work for certain applications.

I do realize this, but point to times in the past, when cars were designed exactly this way, Busses and Trucks Still are designed this way.

where you would buy an engine, gearbox and chassis from Mercedes, and then take it to a coachbuilder who would design the interior, seats, dashboard luggage space and all the rest of it.

and no 2 cars were the same, and now with everything being modular and not needing exhausts, airflow and a bonnet for access to the engine,
you could make many different combinations of the exact same thing, its just that people dont expand the idea further to build in crash safety.

Idea is not as far fetched as you think, GM even attempted it, but it never went further.

 

[phoneJunky]

EVs get sold to us under the guide of saving the planet, but people keep ignoring how vastly superior an electric motor is for acceleration compared to internal combustion.

To me that's the fun part of a car driving experience. The part your inner ear can actually feel.

It isn't the EV technology that's stopping most of them being interesting. As you said the same thing has happened to ICE cars recently. They're all pretty boring.

The loss of that visceral experience isn't a fault of EV technology, it's because safety and manufacturing standards are changing.

I traded in my BMW 330i M Sport for a Tesla Model 3 (Telsa was a fair bit cheaper than a new 330i) two years ago and I will say the Tesla is way more fun to drive as well as being cheaper to own - no service etc. This is not in SA, but I think it would probably translate to similar when these EVs eventually show up in SA. I might not stay with Telsa, but I think I am not going to buy an ICE car again.

 

[Johnatan56]

Outside of that very limited scenario when it comes to Western Europeans, and us, and most of the developing world etc etc etc, cars have over the past 100 odd years they have been mainstream done virtually no long term meaningful damage of the environment, and when it come to greenhouse gas emissions,

You can just take any city you were in during lockdown in 2020 how clean the air became. A lot of PM2.5 emissions come from ICE as well. Cities are quieter without ICE vehicles.

EVs just offset the “damage” to other remote locations, but guaranteed over their entire product lifecycle, they will be much more damaging to the environment than ICE cars will ever be.

Electric Vehicle Myths | US EPA

Facts and myths about electric vehicles.

www.epa.gov

Exactly the opposite. This is 2020 stats, gray is assembly and production and a lot of that impact is due to energy mix in the US not being that green (20% in 2020, near 27% in 2025).

A global comparison of the life-cycle greenhouse gas emissions of combustion engine and electric passenger cars - International Council on Clean Transportation

Life-cycle assessment of the greenhouse gas emissions of passenger cars in China, Europe, India, and the United States, which together account for about 70% of new passenger car sales worldwide.

theicct.org

Ignoring the toxic waste released and extremely sensitive environments destroyed by lithium and cobalt etc mining,

LFP is usually free of cobalt, most EVs in the last 5 years moved to it. For lithium, EU is trying to get recycling rates 35% in 2026, 70% by 2030. Over half the world's lithium comes from Australia at the moment, runner up is Chile, if you're trying to argue cobalt mining being kids and stuff. Lithium is highly recyclable, so it's mostly a sunk cost rather than re-occurring.

the biggest environmental cost from ICE cars will come from their disposable nature, and need to be replaced at a far higher rate. This will become particularly evident once people begin using legislation to “force” a conversion to EV.

Do you mean EVs will be replaced at a higher rate? That's false, most of the time the battery will outlast the rest of the car. Currently most EV batteries are guaranteed up to 8-10 years / 250 000km, and that's that they need to keep 80% of their capacity conservatively. There's also less service and stuff, so less parts that can break. That's part of why there are so many new entrants in the space, don't have to figure out how to deal with a very complex engine to get ICE to be efficient, it took decades of research to get to where they are now. EV is just better.

South Africa will probably get cars where you'll have a gas engine to generate energy to power an electric battery / engine.

 

[HAL 9000]

Im still of the opinion EV's are the perfect idea to make even more modular, separate the body and seats and interior from the actual mechanics, and then go nuts with the possibilities, as it will all be modular.

so for the 9-5 grind, a boring econobox 5 door hatchback, but over the weekend, a Bakkie body on the same "skateboard" frame that holds the wheels and batteries and motors.
moving house, a Van body, want to cruise in a 2 door convertible, an easy swap,

and all the possibilities that having everything modular brings, bigger motors, bigger batteries, smaller frame, bigger frame

These modular concept cars were jacks of all trades and masters of weird - Hagerty​

Mercedes-Benz VRC Concept, 1995​

A coupe that transforms into a convertible that transforms into a van that transforms into a pickup truck! That was the vision of the handsome and light blue Vario Research Car, introduced at the Geneva Motor Show in 1995—possibly the purest distillation of modularity.

In Mercedes’ vision, customers don’t own the bodies, but instead rent them from dealers, whose technicians have been entrusted with the delicate operation of switcharoo. The company therefore becomes the state, eliminating private enterprise.

The carbon-fiber body panels weigh up to 110 pounds, and small electric motors help position and lock them into place. Decades later, the company would revisit the idea with the Vision Urbanetic, a skateboard chassis (more on that later) that changes from an egg into a box.

https://www.hagerty.com/media/car-profiles/weird-modular-concept-cars/

 

[porchrat]

I traded in my BMW 330i M Sport for a Tesla Model 3 (Telsa was a fair bit cheaper than a new 330i) two years ago and I will say the Tesla is way more fun to drive as well as being cheaper to own - no service etc. This is not in SA, but I think it would probably translate to similar when these EVs eventually show up in SA. I might not stay with Telsa, but I think I am not going to buy an ICE car again.

Indeed. In SA we objectively get taken advantage of by the automotive market. EVs get hit the hardest because of the way that system is structured.

Our SA experience isn't even close to what people overseas are experiencing. They have access to models we don't see, prices we could only imagine, and running costs for traditional ICE vehicles we would shudder at.

There's a reason we're seeing more and more EVs overseas.

The "EV problem" the OP is talking about is more of a localised SA problem. We have a poor selection and grossly elevated prices.

 

[Jet-Fighter7700]

The "EV problem" the OP is talking about it more of a localised SA problem. We have a poor selection and grossly elevated prices.

this, we also have terrible safety standards, terrible inflated prices, and povo spec models.
all to "protect" the vehicle export industry, we are no longer competitive in anyway.

not to mention we take 100 years to pass through EV legislation, and BEE and all the other completely artificial roadblocks to anything approaching innovation and profitability.

 

[Jet-Fighter7700]

These modular concept cars were jacks of all trades and masters of weird - Hagerty​

View attachment 1882448

View attachment 1882449

Mercedes-Benz VRC Concept, 1995​

https://www.hagerty.com/media/car-profiles/weird-modular-concept-cars/

looking for the GM concept that showed what im on about, had 1 plug that was the accelerator brakes steering and everything,
you can then replace the entire vehicle frame with whatever you need, van, hatch,sedan,convertible, or any combination

LHD/RHD anything you could imagine, as you dont need airflow and radiators and exhausts and everything an ICE vehicle has.

you have batteries, motors and controllers, thats about it.

 

[Zellephant]

You can just take any city you were in during lockdown in 2020 how clean the air became. A lot of PM2.5 emissions come from ICE as well. Cities are quieter without ICE vehicles.

Agreed, but cities are great when there are no vehicles in them at all, either EV or ICE. That is what the goal should be, virtually car free cities. Everywhere you go that has chosen to keep cars completely out of the city, is great.

View attachment 1882445

Electric Vehicle Myths | US EPA

Facts and myths about electric vehicles.

www.epa.gov

Exactly the opposite. This is 2020 stats, gray is assembly and production and a lot of that impact is due to energy mix in the US not being that green (20% in 2020, near 27% in 2025).
View attachment 1882446

A global comparison of the life-cycle greenhouse gas emissions of combustion engine and electric passenger cars - International Council on Clean Transportation

Life-cycle assessment of the greenhouse gas emissions of passenger cars in China, Europe, India, and the United States, which together account for about 70% of new passenger car sales worldwide.

theicct.org

LFP is usually free of cobalt, most EVs in the last 5 years moved to it. For lithium, EU is trying to get recycling rates 35% in 2026, 70% by 2030. Over half the world's lithium comes from Australia at the moment, runner up is Chile, if you're trying to argue cobalt mining being kids and stuff. Lithium is highly recyclable, so it's mostly a sunk cost rather than re-occurring.

Been to lithium mines. I call BS on this. It makes open cast coal mining look like a green peace convention.

Also, look at where the future lithium reserves sit. Bad news for the environment.

Do you mean EVs will be replaced at a higher rate? That's false, most of the time the battery will outlast the rest of the car. Currently most EV batteries are guaranteed up to 8-10 years / 250 000km, and that's that they need to keep 80% of their capacity conservatively. There's also less service and stuff, so less parts that can break. That's part of why there are so many new entrants in the space, don't have to figure out how to deal with a very complex engine to get ICE to be efficient, it took decades of research to get to where they are now. EV is just better.

South Africa will probably get cars where you'll have a gas engine to generate energy to power an electric battery / engine.

EVs will be replaced more often than ICE cars, will have very limited viability in the used market beyond say 10 years. Electronics are disposable items at the end of the day. Whether phones or cars.

So you are saying hybrids are what will work in SA. I fully agree there. But the electronic side of things, especially the battery replacement cost, remains a factor.

 

[HAL 9000]

Then I’m out before I even get in. Imagine starting a discussion with that line.

Points you over in the direction of Newsday, BusinessTech & Daily Investor 'click-bait' AI-generated spambot headlines for endless $hits & Giggles...

 

[Sinbad]

Agreed, but cities are great when there are no vehicles in them at all, either EV or ICE. That is what the goal should be, virtually car free cities. Everywhere you go that has chosen to keep cars completely out of the city, is great.

Been to lithium mines. I call BS on this. It makes open cast coal mining look like a green peace convention.

Also, look at where the future lithium reserves sit. Bad news for the environment.

EVs will be replaced more often than ICE cars, will have very limited viability in the used market beyond say 10 years. Electronics are disposable items at the end of the day. Whether phones or cars.

So you are saying hybrids are what will work in SA. I fully agree there. But the electronic side of things, especially the battery replacement cost, remains a factor.

I have bad news for you. All modern cars are electronic devices. There are as many computers and gadgets in a modern ice car as there are in an EV.
I don't know why you think they'll have no viability after 10 years. So you get 500km off a charge instead of 600? So what? Did you know your ice engine's usable actual power and efficiency has probably decreased by a similar factor over time?

Also, sodium is about to take over from lithium... Good news both in environmental terms and longevity terms.

 

[konfab]

I disagree with darn near everything you've just said.

Only the initial cost of an EV is higher than the ICE car. Lifetime ownership cost in most countries is lower.

Whether or not they're practical also very much depends on how you use them. As city cars for example they're vastly more practical.

I use my car for more than just driving in a city. I have a 7 seater diesel van. When I go on holiday, I usually take a trailer.

Let's look at the alternatives: This is the cheapest 7 seater ev that could sort of replace my trusty Fiat.
https://ev-database.org/car/2160/Citroen-e-Berlingo-XL-50-kWh

R666 902,40, and it has a 230 km range.

With a fully packed trailer, that probably would be take it down to about 150 over long distances. That is just pathetic.

My 3rd hand Fiat van works very nicely in the city, and it works well when I want to haul the family away for a holiday.

Lithium battery tech just isn't suitable for what people use their cars for. Here is a smell for you why it is the case. With cellphones, did the government have to provide subsidies to get people to switch from a landline to a cellphone? Nope, people bought cellphones because they are superior. Both the US and EU had massive EV subsidies and they still didn't get much traction.

That is indicative of a failure.

You need a couple of things for EVs to work:
1) Electricity must basically be free.
2) You need a long distance rail network capable of hauling cars and passengers to make up for the shitty charging infrastructure
3) The price needs to be cheaper than an internal combustion engine vehicle to make up for the disadvantages.

 

[porchrat]

I use my car for more than just driving in a city.

I have a 7 seater diesel van. When I go on holiday, I usually take a trailer.

Let's look at the alternatives: This is the cheapest 7 seater ev that could sort of replace my trusty Fiat.
https://ev-database.org/car/2160/Citroen-e-Berlingo-XL-50-kWh

R666 902,40, and it has a 230 km range.

With a fully packed trailer, that probably would be take it down to about 150 over long distances. That is just pathetic.

My 3rd hand Fiat van works very nicely in the city, and it works well when I want to haul stuff 200km.

So you attempted to address my point about there being use cases for EVs by pointing out your use case where an EV is less optimal?

I mean... I agree... it doesn't address my point at all and you're simply agreeing with me, but OK good for you I suppose?

In SA EVs aren't workable outside of a handful of use cases. SA's situation is extremely localised though. There are plenty of other countries that simply don't face the challenges we face. EVs work well in those places.

 

[konfab]

So you attempted to address my point about there being use cases for EVs by pointing out your use case where an EV is less optimal?

I mean... I agree... it doesn't address my point at all and you're simply agreeing with me, but OK good for you I suppose?

In SA EVs aren't workable outside of a handful of use cases. SA's situation is extremely localised though. There are plenty of other countries that simply don't face the challenges we face. EVs work well in those places.

You mean the countries that had to subsidise EVs and their infrastructure with taxpayer money because people were just desperate for them? Please...

They are not the future. The future will be hybrid EV vehicles with CO2 derived hydrocarbon fuels.

 

[porchrat]

You mean the countries that had to subsidise EVs and their infrastructure with taxpayer money because people were just desperate for them? Please...

They are not the future. The future will be hybrid EV vehicles with CO2 derived hydrocarbon fuels.

If you say it it must be true champ.

 

[Zellephant]

I have bad news for you. All modern cars are electronic devices. There are as many computers and gadgets in a modern ice car as there are in an EV.

Exactly why I stopped really paying attention to new cars about 10 years ago already. We are already way past “peak car”. That probably happened somewhere in the late 2000s or early 2010s.

I don't know why you think they'll have no viability after 10 years. So you get 500km off a charge instead of 600? So what? Did you know your ice engine's usable actual power and efficiency has probably decreased by a similar factor over time?

Viability in terms of resale value - which means they will all end up in the recycling heap, which is a further unnecessary cost. The most environmentally friendly car is the one you can drive for 30+ years.

Plus. 600km (or 500km) range will simply never cut it for me. For a small runabout that’s okay, but for a proper car, range must be reliably 800km +, and not take more than 10minutes to recharge. If EV can make that happen, maybe I will pay attention.

Our runabout is a bare bones Suzuki swift. It cost something silly like R250k new, it easily does 500+ km on a 33litre tank of petrol. Costs peanuts to service. And as cheap and plastic as it is, it’s a joy to drive, and once in a while, when I’m alone in it, and my teenage self comes out, it’s extreme loads of fun to drive at its limits.

Your theory about ICE losing power over time is also not really true. If you keep up basic services, that shouldn’t really happen outside of a few percent, and motors can be refurbed multiple times over their lifespan as well, cheaply.

Also, sodium is about to take over from lithium... Good news both in environmental terms and longevity terms.

We can hope, but this is a long long way off

 

[Sepeng]

I'm in the "EVs are just another type of propulsion" camp and reckon if anything they add to the motoring landscape, not detract from it.
Sure I want there to be choice; I want a world where you have motoring folk that favour petrol and diesel and electric and hybrid and whatever tickles their fancy. I don't like this idea of all cars must be xxxx by the year xxxx. But I also don't subscribe to this notion that all petrol heads are the same, and all want the same thing from their cars to get excited.
When diesel cars came out it was a similar story wasn't it - diesel is for trucks and bakkies, not my German sedan. Now you get hardcore motoring enthusiasts that love diesel. Folk that prefer petrol will say, well, diesels don't rev like petrol, don't sound like petrol, woe is me!
Same with turbos, and auto gearboxes, and probably a bunch of other things that has changed in the motoring world. Are autos a socialist plot? Turbos? Cos if they are, sign me up as a socialist. Different folk will find joy and excitement in different things.

Else we say a manual naturally aspirated small hot hatch is the only example of motoring purity and anyone deviating from this is a motoring heathen.

Our runabout is a bare bones Suzuki swift. It cost something silly like R250k new, it easily does 500+ km on a 33litre tank of petrol. Costs peanuts to service. And as cheap and plastic as it is, it’s a joy to drive, and once in a while, when I’m alone in it, and my teenage self comes out, it’s extreme loads of fun to drive at its limits.

I agree here, my old man has one, it's a blast. Now imagine it being electric. I mean I drove that twin motor Volvo Ex30 I think it is. That thing is just ludicrously quick, like it has no business being that quick and quiet and comfy and it's a right laugh. And any car that can get you to smile while driving, that's alright in my books.

My issue with the motoring world these days is far less the engine type, more the body types. We're all just getting mid size SUVs that kinda all look the same due to safety and pedestrian laws; put an outline of an Alfa next to a Volvo next to a GWM, no-one will be able to tell what's what. So I agree with you on that part. And all the electronics. But the EV specific item? I'm all for that.

 

[konfab]

If you say it it must be true champ.

You haven't provided evidence or arguments to the contrary. Just saying hurrrrrrr ICE cars are bad mkay doesn't convince me.
Government subsidising the demand for consumer products is a huge red flag.

The reason why hybrid cars are going to be very important because they do cover shortcomings of ICE vehicles. In a lot of ways actually. For example, there are electric CVTs

So you get a vehicle with superior performance, better efficiency, for a bit more.

The fuel thing is just basic physics. Reality is that no battery can store as much chemical energy for volume or weight as much as a hydrocarbon.


And hydrogen is impractical because it breaks everything you store it in.

So we are left with hydrocarbons, easy to move and store because they are liquid at room temperature. With nuclear power stations on coastlines, basically every country can produce CO2 derived hydrocarbons for transportation.

 

[Zellephant]

So you attempted to address my point about there being use cases for EVs by pointing out your use case where an EV is less optimal?

I mean... I agree... it doesn't address my point at all and you're simply agreeing with me, but OK good for you I suppose?

In SA EVs aren't workable outside of a handful of use cases. SA's situation is extremely localised though. There are plenty of other countries that simply don't face the challenges we face. EVs work well in those places.

And yet in all those countries, EV sales seem to be directly linked to government subsidies. As soon as the subsidies and tax rebates go, the EV sales drop. Funny that. Must also explain why the big brand manufacturers are all scaling back on EV production and lobbying against the 2035 bans on ICE vehicle sales…..

 

[porchrat]

And yet in all those countries, EV sales seem to be directly linked to government subsidies. As soon as the subsidies and tax rebates go, the EV sales drop. Funny that. Must also explain why the big brand manufacturers are all scaling back on EV production and lobbying against the 2035 bans on ICE vehicle sales…..

Subsidies are falling now while sales are rising though.

In the EU 2025 1 in 5 cars sold was an EV. That's a new record.

The share of electric vehicles in the market rose 4% last year. ICE dropped.

Where are you getting your info?

 

[porchrat]

You haven't provided evidence or arguments to the contrary. Just saying hurrrrrrr ICE cars are bad mkay doesn't convince me.
Government subsidising the demand for consumer products is a huge red flag.

The reason why hybrid cars are going to be very important because they do cover shortcomings of ICE vehicles. In a lot of ways actually. For example, there are electric CVTs

So you get a vehicle with superior performance, better efficiency, for a bit more.

The fuel thing is just basic physics. Reality is that no battery can store as much chemical energy for volume or weight as much as a hydrocarbon.
View attachment 1882517

And hydrogen is impractical because it breaks everything you store it in.

So we are left with hydrocarbons, easy to move and store because they are liquid at room temperature. With nuclear power stations on coastlines, basically every country can produce CO2 derived hydrocarbons for transportation.

Those "shortcomings" are only shortcomings in some use cases though. Which is my point.

You're speaking as though your use case is the only legitimate one. It's not.

I readily agree that in YOUR specific use case a hybrid makes more sense. That's clearly not the case for everyone.