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Article: BEE in engineering sector a problem: Motlanthe
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You get 5 years experience in 2 weeks?
Goldenrule
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Years of not being exposed to a proper education ? Grinding social issues ? Lack of precident ? I don't know...tell us what we're meant to guess ?
Goldenrule
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we don't need "education". according to BEE, The skills are going to "transfer". What you need to do?
Plug your head to a computer and download the skills from the internet.
Yeah, that's exactly what BEE says. We don't need education.
Do you ever even listen to yourself ?
Like it or not if we want to normalise society we are going to first have to make it appear more representative. Without doing that you will never convince black people anything has changed and they will look towards more radical solutions. Like anarchy and violence. It's in every white persons best interests that we move swiftly towards a society where the wealth is not so grossly distributed towards one "race". I don't mean through socialism. And let's be honest this is not being carried out. I mean through forcing meaningful representation of the majority of the people into the economy in the best and pragmatic ways possible. Later , perhaps 20 years later, we can start to hope that we've made enough of a dent so that we can work strictly on merit. Until then to suggest we can is hippie talk.
But relax. This country has a "skills shortage" apparently. If you're a skilled person there's more than enough room for you and some BEE personel. They didn't have the advantages you had. Respect them and help them allong. If you can't see things in that spirit. Well JHB international is looking pretty nice these days. Go give it a visit. No need to come back.
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Education takes hard work, and the education required for engineering takes even more work than those that rely on BEE/AA are prepared for.we don't need "education". according to BEE, The skills are going to "transfer". What you need to do?
Plug your head to a computer and download the skills from the internet.
Eskum had a mentor system in pace around 1989 to bring the AA candidates up to speed, and it didn't help a thing - not long after that they had fully compliant AA maintenance departments, but needed to contract in skilled workers to do the plant maintenance.
The problem is there's a total aversion to "WORK" in most of Africa.
In 1997 there were riots in Indonesia, and the people of Chinese origin were targeted and many died when their businesses torched - why, because they were had successful businesses through hard work - which the local didn't had the appetite for.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fall_of_Suharto
BEE/AA will remain forever, because the ones that it benefits will never be capable of competing on a level playing field - anyone heard when they'll be doing away with BEE/AA?
Goldenrule
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Glad you admit it's a cultural thing and not a racial thing. We are I believe slowly seeing signs of black people assimulating into western working culture. You can see it everywhere in the younger generation of black kids who recieved a sound education and make up many positions in local business. Human beings are intrisically demotivated to work hard until we have tasted the sweetness of its rewards. And there's been very little precident set towards highlighting the benefit of hard work to black South Africans until now. I think if you travel into Africa or fly internationally a lot you will meet loads of very hard working Africans slaving away at the import export game you will see the "lazy African" is for most parts a myth when opportunities are there.
Naturally as opportunities open themselves this western value will be more and more ingrained in South Africa. I only hope in the rush for wealth and the obviously affluent years to come we can remain some of that light hearted laid back African vibe.
I don't know what you mean by your last sentence. It came across like you were implying non whites were not capable. But then I thought I'd give you the benefit of the doubt for not being THAT idiotic and just write it off as you're having a bad brain day.
Yeah, that's exactly what BEE says. We don't need education.
Do you ever even listen to yourself ?
Does not follow.
This is not the best way to normalise society. By creating a rich elite of Blacks who are just as oppressive or perhaps even more so than the previous white masters is not the way to normalise society. It does not benefit the poor masses.
What it does do is - create cronyism and corruption. Elite clubs where deals are made. Small group at the top and poorly trained at that because of poor training and education - likewise no motivation. This all in a highly competitive globalised economy with an inefficient local worker and a greater number of very well trained and versed tertiary graduates from places like Indian and China who churn out people SA will never be able to compete with - nor will Europe but that's another issue.
That has been done already. The more radical solutions will emerge anyway as long as you have a high poor-rich gap. SA will always have that, there just isn't enough to go around. Social and political instability can just as easily follow a poor-rich gap as it can a white-black gap.
By instead distributing it inefficiently to create a black elite.
What do you mean? You mean my 50%+ tax is spent on me? Nope sorry - SA has socialism - it had it under the Nats, it's worse now.
Later will probably be too late.
This is poppycock. First of all there isn't room even if you're skilled. Secondly, you are made a second class citizen which is not a nice feeling and definitely unnecessary and thirdly the disadvantage thing is card is being overplayed.
Let's not forget the positive messages of encouragment from the government - such as nationalisation, kill the farmer and of course - you can leave if you don't like it here (in response to any complaint).
The Western honeymoon period with SA is wearing off - as SA makes more enemies in the West with threats of nationalisation and support of anti-Western state actors - expect less leniency and tolerance to BS from the outside world.
One also has to speak to black people themselves (poorer ones) to realise that it's not about race anymore either.
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SA has years and generations to go before it can emerge as a truly egalitarian and rainbow society.
I'll write what some of the problems are (what I think they are) anyway.
No social equality. Black people still think they are inferior and many white still think that whites are racially and culturally superior. It is difficult for people to engage each other when there are language and cultural and traditional divides. We are also seeing the appearance of reverse apartheid/racism.
No economic equality. We are slowly replacing a rich white elite or white middle class - with a new elite or black middle class. The problem is that this is built on shaky foundations since our education is poor (in elite schools too) and we don't choose our new elite/mc on merit only. This means more inefficiency.
No solid foundations in education. Alluded to already but look at the quality of our teachers (probably a majority are substandard), schools, new results, curricula, etc.
No solid family (social) foundations. Mines, migrant labour, tribalism etc - blame that if you will. Perhaps blame the HIV pandemic for creating many orphans. Perhaps blame long working hours and live in chars for lack of parental discipline and oversight of children.
Distrust. We have that within our communities - black on black and even between Afrikaaner and English speaker. We have that between SA's and foreigners (xenophobia).
No gender equality - women are still seen as inferior - no matter how much lip service our govt gives them.
Efficiency - we're bad here. Our labour is over unionised. That is good and bad. Our workers demand increases which drive our inflation - I don't blame them - I would too.
Many many more reasons....
Vs our Competitors. Our competitors come from highly organised societies where discipline, education, loyalty are valued and their societies require positive economic growth at home. They could swallow us if they wanted to, yesterday.
In short I don't think SA is doomed but SA will remain a disillusionment for most South Africans. When will it get better -- I don't think we will see significant improvements in this century. Perhaps, if all goes well, if we can learn to be humble and work hard at all levels - after that. Saying all of this, we have dropped apartheid and hopefully we will drop EE/AA which although less violent is just as unjust on a personal level. To make SA a place people can truly love, human beings can't feel victimized. When people feel victimised they feel hurt and then resentment builds and jealousy and finally irrational thought. We need to be encompassing to all. Socialism is not the answer but neither is replacing one elite with another although this inevitably will happen, ask the SACP what they think.
I've worked with English speakers, Afrikaaners, Zulu speakers, Xhosa speakers, Sotho speakers etc - they're all good people - but we have problems in SA which can't be signed away with a pen. It will take decades and whole generations to equalise SA with more advanced societies.
I'll write what some of the problems are (what I think they are) anyway.
No social equality. Black people still think they are inferior and many white still think that whites are racially and culturally superior. It is difficult for people to engage each other when there are language and cultural and traditional divides. We are also seeing the appearance of reverse apartheid/racism.
No economic equality. We are slowly replacing a rich white elite or white middle class - with a new elite or black middle class. The problem is that this is built on shaky foundations since our education is poor (in elite schools too) and we don't choose our new elite/mc on merit only. This means more inefficiency.
No solid foundations in education. Alluded to already but look at the quality of our teachers (probably a majority are substandard), schools, new results, curricula, etc.
No solid family (social) foundations. Mines, migrant labour, tribalism etc - blame that if you will. Perhaps blame the HIV pandemic for creating many orphans. Perhaps blame long working hours and live in chars for lack of parental discipline and oversight of children.
Distrust. We have that within our communities - black on black and even between Afrikaaner and English speaker. We have that between SA's and foreigners (xenophobia).
No gender equality - women are still seen as inferior - no matter how much lip service our govt gives them.
Efficiency - we're bad here. Our labour is over unionised. That is good and bad. Our workers demand increases which drive our inflation - I don't blame them - I would too.
Many many more reasons....
Vs our Competitors. Our competitors come from highly organised societies where discipline, education, loyalty are valued and their societies require positive economic growth at home. They could swallow us if they wanted to, yesterday.
In short I don't think SA is doomed but SA will remain a disillusionment for most South Africans. When will it get better -- I don't think we will see significant improvements in this century. Perhaps, if all goes well, if we can learn to be humble and work hard at all levels - after that. Saying all of this, we have dropped apartheid and hopefully we will drop EE/AA which although less violent is just as unjust on a personal level. To make SA a place people can truly love, human beings can't feel victimized. When people feel victimised they feel hurt and then resentment builds and jealousy and finally irrational thought. We need to be encompassing to all. Socialism is not the answer but neither is replacing one elite with another although this inevitably will happen, ask the SACP what they think.
I've worked with English speakers, Afrikaaners, Zulu speakers, Xhosa speakers, Sotho speakers etc - they're all good people - but we have problems in SA which can't be signed away with a pen. It will take decades and whole generations to equalise SA with more advanced societies.
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Does not follow.
This is not the best way to normalise society. By creating a rich elite of Blacks who are just as oppressive or perhaps even more so than the previous white masters is not the way to normalise society. It does not benefit the poor masses.
What it does do is - create cronyism and corruption. Elite clubs where deals are made. Small group at the top and poorly trained at that because of poor training and education - likewise no motivation. This all in a highly competitive globalised economy with an inefficient local worker and a greater number of very well trained and versed tertiary graduates from places like Indian and China who churn out people SA will never be able to compete with - nor will Europe but that's another issue.
That has been done already. The more radical solutions will emerge anyway as long as you have a high poor-rich gap. SA will always have that, there just isn't enough to go around. Social and political instability can just as easily follow a poor-rich gap as it can a white-black gap.
By instead distributing it inefficiently to create a black elite.
What do you mean? You mean my 50%+ tax is spent on me? Nope sorry - SA has socialism - it had it under the Nats, it's worse now.
Later will probably be too late.
This is poppycock. First of all there isn't room even if you're skilled. Secondly, you are made a second class citizen which is not a nice feeling and definitely unnecessary and thirdly the disadvantage thing is card is being overplayed.
Let's not forget the positive messages of encouragment from the government - such as nationalisation, kill the farmer and of course - you can leave if you don't like it here (in response to any complaint).
The Western honeymoon period with SA is wearing off - as SA makes more enemies in the West with threats of nationalisation and support of anti-Western state actors - expect less leniency and tolerance to BS from the outside world.
One also has to speak to black people themselves (poorer ones) to realise that it's not about race anymore either.
Well said!
That was the whole **idea** behind the ‘rainbow nation’ concept. Unfortunately, it was perverted and things went the other way. Instead of uplifting so every one enjoyed perhaps 2nd world status, everyone was reduced to the same level of poverty and squalor. Viva ANC.
A life force linking living organics? Food for thought. Hark back to the ‘Star Wars’ documentary.
When Obi Wan Kenobi was escaping Tatooine in Han Solo’s freighter (Millennium Falcon), Darth Vader’s Death Star vaporized the planet Aldebaron and Obi Wan sensed a ‘disturbance in the force’. Hmmmmmm.
Could Brussel Sprouts be proto-Jedi Knights?
The_Unbeliever
Honorary Master
I don't see how's that possible to get 5 years experience in two weeks.
Does it mean that 1+1=5?
Does it mean that 1+1=5?
Kosmik
Honorary Master
KillerX
Expert Member
Well said PeterCH. I agree with most of that.
DreamKing
Honorary Master
no education => no transformation. simple
AA never works because of it.
AA never works because of it.
Unfortunately, that's what they are trying to do.
Therooster/JohnGulit/Kill-All-Whitey troll PWND by Peter
Therooster/JohnGulit/Kill-All-Whitey troll posts to which Peter responded have been deleted - I wonder how long it will take before this latest clone is banned.
grok
Honorary Master
BEE, by trying to address a problem is the cause of another problem - the person with the right skin color may not necessarily be the one with the right skills for the job. To get more people with the right skin color that have the skills for the job you'll to educate and train them, then you have to make the type of positions attractive i.t.o. pay, status, working conditions etc. It's gonna cost and won't change overnight, especially not just because some ex-stand-in-prez-guy wants it so.
