Article: Gauteng tolls too complex: DA

[Pitbull]

The thing you are forgetting is that ALL of those alternative routes are already at capacity. Putting ALL of the traffic onto back roads that already carry a significant amount of traffic is just not going to work.

Have you ever seen what an intersection on a side road looks like because all the traffic has been diverted off a highway due to an accident or temporary closure? Now imagine that at ALL the intersections on ALL the backroads in Gauteng. It's just not going to work.

And what happens when there is a blockage up on one road, or an accident? You can't divert traffic around it like you do on a highway. It just blocks the entire road. Then the intersections around the accident get blocked, then you have gridlock.

Seriously, I think you need to talk to some traffic management specialists here. Cos your idea is seriously naive.

If the N1 was to be removed tomorrow sure it would go grid lock for a day or 2. Eventually people will get their travel times right and it would flow as normal. The reason you get grid lock traffic when something happens is because no one planned for it. You know that...

 

[genetic]

Come on Gary. People drive these alternative routes DAILY!!!. You are trying to justify the alternative as not viable to yourself. You know that. There isn't 1 road between Johannesburg and Pretoria. Just of the top of my head I can name you 7. 7 roads not all single lane, but let's say 7 single lanes which in turn is actually more than the 4 on the N1 isn't it? O and that excludes the ones I don't know of. Come on mate, seriously, are you being this difficult on purpose? Because I know for a fact you are smarter than this.

So you have 300,000k+ cars on a 6 lane highway with no robots, and you don't see the problem with thousands of cars on a single lane service road with tons of stops and poor arterial planning? Do you see any problem with that?

 

[genetic]

If the N1 was to be removed tomorrow sure it would go grid lock for a day or 2. Eventually people will get their travel times right and it would flow as normal. The reason you get grid lock traffic when something happens is because no one planned for it. You know that...

Yip... Gridlock 24/7

If the N1 didn't exist, neither would SA.

 

[DreamKing]

Depends on where I need to be.

R511 to Sandton
N14 to the Westrand
Old Johannesburg road to Johannesburg central

If you need to know a specific area not covered let me know

how much time you spend on those routes?

R511 I guess 1.5 hour
n14 (I don't know, never used)
Old Johannesburg road ......... never mind. (you never can pass allandale)

 

[LazyLion]

Pitbull, seriously man, you need to give this one to a rest. We are not against it... we know people will use the back roads.

But it is not going to be all peaches and ice cream like you imagine. It's going to be hot and crappy and painful.

Many people will have no choice... because they simply cannot afford the tolls. But it will be hell for them to get to work and back.

I really do not envy any of them or us.

 

[Pitbull]

how much time you spend on those routes?

R511 I guess 1.5 hour
n14 (I don't know, never used)
Old Johannesburg road ......... never mind. (you never can pass allandale)

I'll admit, if I drive the Old Jahnnesburg road I use the bike

I forgot to add that I drive the R21 if I need to be in Kempton and the South.
R511 is smooth sailing till about Witkoppen at Monte Casino there it picks up a bit till past the N1 on/off ramp (Which would not be a problem if no one used the N1 ) Take me about 1 hour 30 minutes from PTA town to Sandton Square. If I go to Randburg only about 1 hour Sandton itself is a mess.
N14 takes me 45 minutes from PTA town till in the office in Constantia kloof. Which btw is right next to the N1 highway (14th ave off ramp)

 

[genetic]

Pitbull, seriously man, you need to give this one to a rest. We are not against it... we know people will use the back roads.

But it is not going to be all peaches and ice cream like you imagine. It's going to be hot and crappy and painful.

Many people will have no choice... because they simply cannot afford the tolls. But it will be hell for them to get to work and back.

I really do not envy any of them or us.

+10000

It's bad enough as it is with the current highway system. Hundreds of thousands already use the back roads because of the congestion on freeways. Forcing more people onto a heavily congested back route will just be detrimental.

It's as simple as that.

 

[genetic]

I used to drive from Centurion to Randburg which took me 2hrs 30 min + in 2005. I'd cringe on how long it'd take me now with the new upgrades without the new tolling system...

 

[Pitbull]

Pitbull, seriously man, you need to give this one to a rest. We are not against it... we know people will use the back roads.

But it is not going to be all peaches and ice cream like you imagine. It's going to be hot and crappy and painful.

Many people will have no choice... because they simply cannot afford the tolls. But it will be hell for them to get to work and back.

I really do not envy any of them or us.

Ok I will roll over and play dead if you stop whining about the toll price then. If you don't want to pay it then don't use it. How hard can that be?

I own a bike I can travel with so any road is ok with me. However the wife doesn't like me taking the Bike to Johannesburg in traffic. Fact is, there is an alternative to using the toll roads. No amount of traffic can and will bother me because I won't allow it to. If I have to leave home 5am to get to work before the traffic on the side roads so be it. If I have to travel with the bike more so be it to. But I have a choice between taking the N1 and taking an alternative route. And so does each and everyone of you all.

 

[Pitbull]

I used to drive from Centurion to Randburg which took me 2hrs 30 min + in 2005. I'd cringe on how long it'd take me now with the new upgrades without the new tolling system...

I'm sorry but I can't believe it. Unless you left home at 07:30 in the morning I don't see this ever happening. I leave home at 6am taking the car it takes me 1 hour at most 1 hour 30 minutes to Oak ave in Randburg traveling the R511 today. Must have been even quicker 6 years ago. On the Bike, only about 35 - 45 minutes.

 

[Pitbull]

Actually I see that whole SA state of mind (Entitlement) to be very strong in this thread And these exact same people point others out for their "entitlements"

 

[LazyLion]

Ok I will roll over and play dead if you stop whining about the toll price then. If you don't want to pay it then don't use it. How hard can that be?

I own a bike I can travel with so any road is ok with me. However the wife doesn't like me taking the Bike to Johannesburg in traffic. Fact is, there is an alternative to using the toll roads. No amount of traffic can and will bother me because I won't allow it to. If I have to leave home 5am to get to work before the traffic on the side roads so be it. If I have to travel with the bike more so be it to. But I have a choice between taking the N1 and taking an alternative route. And so does each and everyone of you all.

I don't use the highways much anyway if I can help it. And will probably use them even less now. But the sad fact here is that there really is no VIABLE alternative. It's the devil or the high water. Driving in South Africa is going to suck for us poor plebs for the next few years.... cos there are no other highways we can use... and the back roads are going to be terrible to drive on.

 

[DreamKing]

Actually I see that whole SA state of mind (Entitlement) to be very strong in this thread And these exact same people point others out for their "entitlements"

as you said before, don't you see a problem now in our roads?
(no traffic 30 mins, traffic 1.5 hour)

If as you said, people "choose" to not use the N1 (or highways), what will happen?
=> huge car park of the great JHB area.... I guess.

 

[DreamKing]

(I am going to sleep now and get ready to "park" my car on the road......... )

 

[genetic]

=> huge car park of the great JHB area.... I guess.

As it is already...

 

[Pitbull]

I don't use the highways much anyway if I can help it. And will probably use them even less now. But the sad fact here is that there really is no VIABLE alternative. It's the devil or the high water. Driving in South Africa is going to suck for us poor plebs for the next few years.... cos there are no other highways we can use... and the back roads are going to be terrible to drive on.

Gary, the point I'm trying to make is this:

Even if we had to grind out teeth for 6 months to make a point and leaving the N1 deserted then obviously Government will have to make another plan. Which will mean one of two things:
1. Put toll roads on the alternative roads (Which they can't do. You need to have an untolled alternative to every toll road)
2. Cut the prices on the toll fees on the N1

I'm not saying it will be easy, but that is the ONLY way to force the price down. Nothing else anyone come up with will even make government think about changing the rates.

No one is saying it will be easy, but if we all stick out for 6 months everyone wins. If not no one can go around crying about the high rates. I NEVER drive the N1 between Pretoria and Johannesburg unless I'm going on Holiday. This is by choice.

 

[OzzieCapie]

Just for reference the perspective of toll roads in Australia. It is not just a South African or an ANC issue.

From the outside looking in it doesn't take long before the govt is blamed or called incompetent for everything.

No one likes to pay road tolls, especially when travelling on highways always used to be free, but the reality is that govts will either not keep up with highway infrastructure or they will 'fast track' it with private/govt toll roads. It is done by all countries, and your tolls are amongst the lowest so be grateful for that.

As a comparison, from where I live in Sydney if I used freeway only from home, then to get to the city (or onward to airport) would be (heading east) would be two freeways, one tunnel and harbour bridge, total $13.62 (R100.00) for 39km or $0.35c (R2.56) per km.
Speed limits are variable between 80km-100km/h and in peak travel it would take you over an hour...yes even when you are paying for the privilege--yet still quicker than rat-runs with lots of traffic lights.

Heading southwest in opposite direction , one freeway only $6.92 (R51.00) for 34km or $0.20c (R1.50) per km but this not heading towards CBD or industrial areas for most people i.e to head to Canberra or south west suburbs only.

We all have e-Tags, even the casual driver, because at some stage you will need it. These e-Tags have a minimum auto top up amount of $50, so these companies are at any stage sitting on a deposit of $50 x hundreds of thousands. The e-Tags work on all the toll roads irrespective of who owns/manages it , even if you drive to Melbourne or Brisbane.

We also blame the govt btw....but the ANC can never ever be as incompetent as the NSW Labor govt that has been in power since 1995 (hopefully for only one month more). At the end of the day you choose between unreliable public transport, lots of stress in traffic jams and lights and less stress in slow moving freeway.

I will post it on the 'protest' thread too.

 

[phoneJunky]

I used to drive from Centurion to Randburg which took me 2hrs 30 min + in 2005. I'd cringe on how long it'd take me now with the new upgrades without the new tolling system...

I travel from Centurion to Randburg regularly and the only time I travelled more than an hour was when I tried the N1. On the N14, I always travel between 40-60 minutes.

 

[LazyLion]

Gary, the point I'm trying to make is this:

Even if we had to grind out teeth for 6 months to make a point and leaving the N1 deserted then obviously Government will have to make another plan. Which will mean one of two things:
1. Put toll roads on the alternative roads (Which they can't do. You need to have an untolled alternative to every toll road)
2. Cut the prices on the toll fees on the N1

I'm not saying it will be easy, but that is the ONLY way to force the price down. Nothing else anyone come up with will even make government think about changing the rates.

No one is saying it will be easy, but if we all stick out for 6 months everyone wins. If not no one can go around crying about the high rates. I NEVER drive the N1 between Pretoria and Johannesburg unless I'm going on Holiday. This is by choice.

Hey, I agree with your point. I'm all for starving them of funds. I'm a big supporter of the "Don't pay the bad guys" philosophy. It is the reason why I don't use DSTV or Telkom (for my bandwidth).
We just took exception with your idea that the alternative is a viable alternative. It isn't. It will be hell to use. But I think people should give it a try anyway.
Let's do it.

 

[phoneJunky]

Well, if you are close enough to a Gautrain station I am sure the toll rates will persuade you to take it now. I only used the Sandton - OR Tambo route so far, but it is fast, clean and safe. Hopefully the prices won't be to steep. Every important place I want to go to is within the feeder bus range from the various stations so I might give it a go. The only thing is that it seems it will be more expensive than initially planned.