Article: Israel attacks barbaric: ANC

OrbitalDawn said:
But there's absolutely no indication that Israel ever intends doing this, which is the problem. So no, I'd say Israel has more power in terms of a successful peace plan. As I said earlier, this isn't a battle between equals.

And Israel doesn't have to compromise their safety to show goodwill, either.
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And Hamas shows no sign of stopping with the rockets and Iran won't recognise Israel anytime soon. Both sides have a roll to play in this.

Israel cannot commit to a drastic policy of vacating and/or or ceding territory if the other side does not do their part, and whether you agree or not, it is easier to stop firing rockets and open diplomatic channels than resettle thousands of civilians.
 
gorgamin said:
I don't see how that's related, other than personal sentiment against expensive cars? Is there a unmentioned rule than politicians who drive cheap cars are better?
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Don't bother.
 
Alan said:
no because the Israeli state itself is considered a threat to Hamas.

Settlements or no settlements....
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Yes, Hamas, not all Palestinians. Which is why Hamas needs to be eradicated and their reason for existing addressed.

Look at this, for example. Here's a potential ally for Israel which they'll only alienate with their actions.

Mahmoud Abbas slams Hamas over rocket attacks on Israel: ‘What are you trying to achieve?’

thestaggy said:
And Hamas shows no sign of stopping with the rockets and Iran won't recognise Israel anytime soon. Both sides have a roll to play in this.

Israel cannot commit to a drastic policy of vacating and/or or ceding territory if the other side does not do their part, and whether you agree or not, it is easier to stop firing rockets and open diplomatic channels than resettle thousands of civilians.
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It doesn't have to be drastic, dunno why you keep emphasising this? It just has to actually happen at some point. The point is they've never indicated any intent on doing it.
 
Scary thing is Israel's own security heads know they're doing it wrong.

http://www.thenational.ae/opinion/comment/slowly-but-surely-israels-illusions-are-being-dismantled

Tamir Pardo – head of Israel’s Mossad intelligence agency – was quoted as saying Iran would not be an existential threat to Israel.

More worrying for Mr Netanyahu, perhaps, was the fact that Mr Pardo bluntly asserted that the greatest threat facing Israel was, in fact, its unresolved conflict with the Palestinians. That’s because Mr Netanyahu has sought to convince Israelis and the world that the status quo with the Palestinians is sustainable, and that pressing for a political solution is dangerous.

Yuval Diskin, who served as head of Israel’s Shin Bet security service until 2011, wrote on Sunday that nobody ought to have been surprised. The events of the past two weeks, he said, were the product of the Netanyahu government adopting policies premised on the belief that the status quo can be sustained while settlements expand into an irreversible reality.

“This illusion worked wonderfully as long as the security establishment was able to provide impressive calm on the security front,” Diskin wrote, per the translation of Forward writer JJ Goldberg. “The deterioration is first and foremost a result of the illusion that the government’s inaction on every front can actually freeze the situation in place … the illusion that everything can be solved with a little more force, the illusion that the Palestinians will accept everything that’s done in the West Bank and won’t respond despite the rage and frustration and the worsening economic situation … and so on.”

The Israelis recognise that the PA security forces have been vital to the calm they’ve enjoyed in the West Bank over the past five years. But while Mahmoud Abbas insists that security cooperation with Israel is “sacred”, he may eventually struggle to convince his men of the same. Gen Keith Dayton, the US officer deployed by George W Bush to mentor the PA security forces, warned in 2009 that those forces could only be counted on to the extent that they are convinced they are the army of a Palestinian state-in-the-making. They have no interest in being a gendarmerie of the occupation. “There is perhaps a two-year shelf life on being told that you’re creating a state, when you’re not,” Gen Dayton warned. The political process towards statehood has, if anything, gone backwards since.

Dayton’s warning is clearly being echoed by many in the Israeli security establishment. But Mr Netanyahu doesn’t appear to share their sense of urgency about ending the occupation. And it’s the occupation, per Diskin and Pardo, that remains the key source of Israel’s security problems.
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Garyvdh said:
Meet the “Poorest President” in the World – Uruguayan President José Mujica Drives a Volkswagen Beetle & Donates 90% of his Salary to Charity....
http://www.bellanaija.com/2012/09/2...n-beetle-donates-90-of-his-salary-to-charity/
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Tell that to my friend in Uruguay who complains about his country and Mujica's incompetence. Yeah, Mujica is an atheist, dresses a little eccentric, and drives an old car. He's also made marijuana and same sex marriage legal. Credible, but these facts mean little more than an interesting facebook article for the average Uruguayan:
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2014/03/19/mujica-popularity-uruguay_n_4994564.html
 
thestaggy said:
I NEVER said they are doing it.
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I said you "make it sound like". I never said you explicitly said it. :confused:


It is a viable long-term solution I offered as I recognise their faults as well. Please follow what has been said before.

1. Hamas stops with the rockets.
2. Hamas and the Arab World recognise Israel's right to exist.
3. Israel ceases territorial expansion and begins to either withdraw from currently occupied territory or instead offers territorial concessions elsewhere.

Those, in my opinion, are the only routes to peace. Whether either clown agrees to it or not does not matter, I am simply saying what I feel would sort the mess out. I'm highlighting the wrongs of both sides and offering a solution.
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Agreed. Well put.

It won't happen though. Hamas won't stop with the rockets and Israel also will never give up the land they have taken.


Alan said:
Pretty much. The settlements are justified as a strategic military necessity by the Israelis. Put as many people, who inevitably tend to be hardliners willing to live with the risks involved as the settlers are, between your mainstream population centers and those that threaten you.

As long as that threat is there the settlements will continue...
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Utter nonsense. Makes far more sense to use the military to create a DMZ of sorts like that seen in Korea. That way one keeps the danger away from one's civilians while still demonstrating that one intends to give that land back when the hostilities end.

Moving civilians in not only keeps civilians at risk, simply now in a new location but also further demonstrates Israel's commitment to annexing the land permanently.

Then again Alan I'm not surprised you support Israel's actions as justified. Seems to me that both sides are at fault here but there are a whole bunch of whackjobs out there that unwaveringly support Israel in pretty much anything it chooses to do. It appears to be largely some sort of ethno-religious thing at its base.
 
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gorgamin said:
Tell that to my friend in Uruguay who complains about his country and Mujica's incompetence. Yeah, Mujica is an atheist, dresses a little eccentric, and drives an old car. He's also made marijuana and same sex marriage legal. Credible, but these facts mean little more than an interesting facebook article for the average Uruguayan:
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2014/03/19/mujica-popularity-uruguay_n_4994564.html
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Hey we have a president who has a far worse track record and earns in the top ten presidents in the world.
What's your point.
I still say this guy is "better" for driving a poorer car!
 
OrbitalDawn said:
It doesn't have to be drastic, dunno why you keep emphasising this? It just has to actually happen at some point. The point is they've never indicated any intent on doing it.
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Uprooting settlements, some of which are are close on 50-years old, won't cause disruptions? Handing over land that you have possibly invested in (roads, utility lines, etc) wouldn't be a big thing? Doing so without your safety guaranteed by your enemies wouldn't make you think twice? Come on now. This is a big deal.

For the umpteenth time in this thread; I know Israel has never handed over/returned land nor have they ever said they will. I know. I am aware of this fact and I never said otherwise, so can we please stop going over this part? I see the faults on both sides and offered a solution. Likewise Hamas and her allies have never acknowledged or committed to recognising Israel's existence. Again, I am aware that neither side has ever committed to any of the above, but I am of the opinion that they need to.

It is a two way street that Israel cannot be expected to go down alone.
 
thestaggy said:
Uprooting settlements, some of which are are close on 50-years old, won't cause disruptions? Handing over land that you have possibly invested in (roads, utility lines, etc) wouldn't be a big thing? Doing so without your safety guaranteed by your enemies wouldn't make you think twice? Come on now. This is a big deal.

For the umpteenth time in this thread; I know Israel has never handed over/returned land nor have they ever said they will. I know. I am aware of this fact and I never said otherwise, so can we please stop going over this part? I see the faults on both sides and offered a solution. Likewise Hamas and her allies have never acknowledged or committed to recognising Israel's existence. Again, I am aware that neither side has ever committed to any of the above, but I am of the opinion that they need to.

It is a two way street that Israel cannot be expected to go down alone.
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Yes, I know. I've never disagreed with you on that. I disagreed with you that Hamas holds the key to peace. The balance of power is firmly in Israel's favour, and they should be held to a higher standard.

I also never said it wouldn't cause disruption. The safety of those people is not guaranteed precisely because of where they're located. Their removal from the area (where they shouldn't have been in the first place) can only increase their safety.
 
So targeted retaliation is barbaric, but firing random rockets into populated areas by the Palestinians is okay? Also, the kidnapping of Israeli civilians by Palestinians is also okay. Right...
 
Wyzak said:
So targeted retaliation is barbaric, but firing random rockets into populated areas by the Palestinians is okay? Also, the kidnapping of Israeli civilians by Palestinians is also okay. Right...
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"Targeted" is a fine line when you end up killing children. Elements from both sides have acted like barbarians, one act of barbarity does not justify another.
 
OrbitalDawn said:
Yes, I know. I've never disagreed with you on that. I disagreed with you that Hamas holds the key to peace. The balance of power is firmly in Israel's favour, and they should be held to a higher standard.

I also never said it wouldn't cause disruption. The safety of those people is not guaranteed precisely because of where they're located. Their removal from the area (where they shouldn't have been in the first place) can only increase their safety.
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In the event of Israel committing to territorial changes Hamas needs to guarantee Israel that she will be left alone. Israel will not do anything that may compromise here safety without it first being guaranteed. Hamas can cease all aggressive actions and acknowledge Israel before Israel can vacate/hand over land.
 
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