Article: Israel attacks barbaric: ANC

Keep telling yourself that.
What will happen to the few million Jews in the world once Israel is gone?
Sorry they have been down this road before and IT WILL not happen again.
This is not about land this s about religion and a nation of people, the Jews.
This BS about land is so old now, its blind hatred.
What would happen if Jews yes Jews were kicked out and the Arabs had control? You think it will stop there? Delusional

Just read this again slowly and its baffling me,are you implying that the whole world doesn't like Jews,as if to imply they cant live in peace in countries like SA,USA,the entire Europe,Australia etc etc etc?Has hitler scarred you so badly that you think the whole world is against you?

I'm certainly not against any Jews,the few that I know are pleasant enough,I do business with them and we get along just fine,even discuss politics sometimes.
 
Go this from a friend of a friend living in Israel via Facebook.....

Rocket attacks from Gaza into Israel continue, extending as far north as Haifa, with attempts to strike the Tel Aviv International Airport. So far, the results have been minimal: some cars destroyed, slight damage to property, a gas station and one man trapped in his car when the cars around him caught fire. Two attempts by Hamas to attack from the sea were foiled and the would-be attackers were killed by Israeli forces. A man driving a booby-trapped vehicle was stopped on his way to perpetuate was seems to an intended suicide attack in a populated area.

Israel has intensified its response, targeting Hamas infrastructure and military assets while preparing for a possible ground assault. To a meaningful extent, the initiative in in Hamas' hands: if it concedes a cease-fire, Israel will be hard-pressed to continue its military campaign. If Hamas scores a single significant hit, with meaningful damage to life, limb or property, Israel will be forced to send in its ground forces.

Israel also faces a serious problem: how will it know when it has won? Hamas is buried deep underground and, if deemed necessary, its leadership can escape through tunnels into Sinai. The only way to uproot the organization is through an extended presence in the Gaza Strip, exposing the occupiers with the kind of resistance it faced in southern Lebanon and the Americans faced in Iraq and Afghanistan. If Hamas sues for a cease-fire, the result will merely be an relative absence of violence until the organization is ready for the next round. Nor is Israel willing to be as ruthless as were the Russians in Chechnya, which is the only way to effectively suppress, if not eradicate, organizations such as Hamas.

Israel and the West are forced to face a new reality. The nature of warfare has changed. Until 1967 the conflict was viewed as the Arab-Israeli Conflict. After Israel took the West Bank and Gaza, it encouraged among the Palestinians increased political expression, made room for the development of local political leadership, allowed extensive educational, economic and cultural advances, developed an infrastructure, granted women the right to vote and permitted meaningful contact between West Bankers and Gazans. None of this was possible under Arab rule (Egyptian in Gaza and Jordanian in the West Bank). Increased national identity resulted in transforming the conflict into one between the Palestinians and the Israelis.

At the same time, important convulsions took occurred in the Arab world. The artificial borders created at whim by Western Powers following the First World War were increasingly challenged. The political entities created by the Powers (Lebanon, Syria, Iraq, TransJordan, Saudi Arabia) existed since their founding only by force of the dictatorships that controlled them or a tenuous balance of almost-equal powers. These dictatorships are now being challenged by ancient aboriginal forces, primarily through the various forms of resurgent Islam seeking hegemony.

The Shi'ites (primarily Iran and Hezbollah in Lebanon) oppose the Sunnis (the major Sunni countries are Turkey, TransJordan, Saudi Arabia, Egypt and the North African States). Moderate, largely cultural Sunnis against radical, largely religious Sunnis such as the Muslim Brotherhood, radical Muslims against extremists such as the Wahabbis (represented by the Saudi Arabian king and his Government), or the more extreme Al Qaida, or the even more extreme Isis that recently sprung up in Syria and has taken over large swathes of that country and of Iraq.

No longer are wars conducted between nations with capitals, a standing, uniformed military, known Governments, visible economic infrastructures and assets. Wars are now "asymmetric" -- waged between nations and groundswell terrorist organizations. It is not possible to overtake a capital and declare victory, because there is no capital to overtake. Capture or kill a leader and another sprouts up in his place. Attack military assets and, inevitably, you maim and kill civilians among whom the organizations hide such assets -- and then expose yourself to the cynical propaganda that exploits Western spineless naivety by weeping crocodile tears over the loss of human life among those in whose homes, schools and hospitals the organizations have have placed their munitions and which they use as staging grounds for attacks, all the while attacking Western civilian targets with impunity.

The present seething cauldron of conflicts in the Middle East has created strange bed-fellows. Egypt, Jordan, Saudi Arabia and Israel has common enemies in the Muslim Brother hood, the violent extremist Muslim movements and the Iranian Shi'ites. Covert cooperation is extensive, driving them closer to one another (and, incidentally, rendering a peace agreement between Israel and the Palestinians more desirable). The West, led by America finds itself sharing concerns with Iran over the extremists Sunni Isis. Secular Russia in in cahoots with religiously-motivated Iran both against Isis and the West. Turkey, a short while ago aspiring to Sunni Muslim leadership, driven into Iran's arms due to the double threat of Kurdish Independence and Isis.

The Palestinians are divided between Hamas' Gaza and the Palestinian Liberation Organization (PLO), ruling through the Palestinian Authority (PA) in the West Bank. Radical Islam, represented by Hamas is considered a threat, but Hamas' economic and political isolation has weakened it to the extent that the PLO is willing to share political powers in the hope that this will further erode Hamas' hold on sections of the population. It runs the risk of being undermined by the crafty Hamas operatives and defeated either by force or at the ballot box.

On the other hand, the rise of extremist Islam, represented by Al Qaida and Isis, constitutes a threat both to the PLO and to Hamas, increasing their dependance on the moderate Sunni States (which, as noted above, are cooperating with Israel and have increased interest in a negotiated peace agreement between the Palestinians and Israel).

Does all of this make sense to you? If it does, please write and enlighten me.
 
Keep telling yourself that.
What will happen to the few million Jews in the world once Israel is gone?
Sorry they have been down this road before and IT WILL not happen again.
This is not about land this s about religion and a nation of people, the Jews.
This BS about land is so old now, its blind hatred.
What would happen if Jews yes Jews were kicked out and the Arabs had control? You think it will stop there? Delusional
and here we have a perfect example of supporting Israel from a religious base. So sad.

Keep in mind of course that none of this justifies the grabbing of land that has been going on since this conflict began. I agree that Israel has a right to exist at this point but it doesn't have a right to annex land.
 
Note also that throughout this entire saga in the last two months, and while absorbing continued rocket attacks from Gaza, Israel continues to supply Gaza with electricity, water, food and medical supplies.
 
Oh no you misunderstand me. I'm not talking about a mutually respected DMZ exactly like the one in Korea where both sides have an agreement in place. I'm actually talking about Israel creating a militarised buffer despite what Hamas want and simply annihilating any unauthorised force that moves across that zone. It will demilitarised in only the sense that there will be no Hamas military in the area. Let the full might of the IDF off the chain in that area. They can do that when they don't have their civilians to worry about. As it is right now all they are doing is annexing land that isn't theirs. Anyone defending that insanity needs their head examined.

In the case of the militarised zone, as opposed to moving civilians in and building permanent settlements, that expresses an attitude from Israel that that isn't their land and that they are happy to move out of that area once the hostilities end. Of course that isn't what Israel seems to want. It seems to consider that land to be property of Israel now and forever.

Sounds good in theory. If the settlements were evacuated and that area declared a DMZ devoid of civilians the Palestinians would still claim their land being stolen. Now just lying barren. Hamas no doubt would soon be sending mass civilian protests of men, women and kids to 'reclaim' their land only get mowed down by the IDF in front of the cameras of the international press.

If this DMZ was constructed on Israeli land and the settlements abandoned to the Palestinians Hamas would soon infiltrate and rain rockets down even further into Israel.

How someone can support that garbage and then be unhappy when other annexures happen (Russia and Ukraine for example) is beyond me. Meh logic goes out the window with many people when religion gets involved (and don't insult my intelligence by claiming religion isn't a big part of this for a lot of people).

Everyone is entitled to their opinion. But for most Israelis it's simply a case of rather rockets rain down on somebody else rather than their own neighbourhoods. No Israeli politician can go to his constituents in a town and claim it's better that they run the risk of rockets falling on their kids schools than support annexing the land of Palestinians who elected to power an organization that wants to exterminate them. Sure there's the religious, cultural and nationalist element but for the most part it's common sense self preservation for the average Israeli.

Morally acceptable on a grander strategic level is another question.

And Hamas has no faith in Israel. Why would they?

You've avoided the question so I'll repeat. If Israel gives up land that Hamas then infiltrates to launch attacks deeper into Israel then what?
 
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and here we have a perfect example of supporting Israel from a religious base. So sad.

Keep in mind of course that none of this justifies the grabbing of land that has been going on since this conflict began. I agree that Israel has a right to exist at this point but it doesn't have a right to annex land.

Growing up, I was exposed to some pretty wacky ideas about supporting Israel from a religious point of view (as someone posted earlier in this thread).
But in University I gave that up as a silly idea.
I do however continue to support them politically.
And to me, Marines post speaks far more about anti-Semitism, than about religious reasons.
The Holocaust was a very real, and not too distant stain on the timeline of history, and there are people around today who would love to make it happen again.
You may laugh, but Anti-Semitism is VERY alive and thriving in the world today.

Sure no country has the right to annex land, and you probably already know that Marine and I both oppose the settlements in the occupied areas.
Not all Israeli political ideas are good ones. We acknowledge that.
But Israel is by far not the only country trying to annex in the world today... and Russia and China are by far the bigger threats in that regard.
 
Just read this again slowly and its baffling me,are you implying that the whole world doesn't like Jews,as if to imply they cant live in peace in countries like SA,USA,the entire Europe,Australia etc etc etc?Has hitler scarred you so badly that you think the whole world is against you?

I'm certainly not against any Jews,the few that I know are pleasant enough,I do business with them and we get along just fine,even discuss politics sometimes.
What I am saying and it went totally over your head is that throughout history hoiw many times have the Jews ben persecuted? How many regimes have tried in vain to wipe them out?
How many more times?
Now that they have a homeland with great power and success, this wont happen again.

One of the reasons I am all for the state of Israel. Muslims have enough already, how many Islamic countries?
 
Sounds good in theory. If the settlements were evacuated and that area declared a DMZ devoid of civilians the Palestinians would still claim their land still being stolen. Now just lying barren.
Ah but the Israelis could easily agree to withdraw the minute hostilities end. Right now they clearly have no intention of ever withdrawing. That is Israel's land as far as Israel is concerned. Do you think this attitude is correct and justifiable?


Hamas no doubt would soon be sending mass civilian protests of men, women and kids to 'reclaim' their land only get mowed down by the IDF in front of the cameras of the international press.
Nah just build big walls and have access control like they currently do but instead don't pack the area behind it with practically immovable civilian settlements clearly demonstrating their intent to stay there forever.


If this DMZ was constructed on Israeli land and the settlements abandoned to the Palestinians Hamas would soon infiltrate and rain rockets down even further into Israel.
No construct it on Palestinian land and negotiate from there. I'm simply saying they shouldn't be building settlements on Palestinian land. That is unjustifiable as there are plenty of alternatives. All it looks like right now is Israel snatching more land.
 
Growing up, I was exposed to some pretty wacky ideas about supporting Israel from a religious point of view (as someone posted earlier in this thread).
But in University I gave that up as a silly idea.
I do however continue to support them politically.
And to me, Marines post speaks far more about anti-Semitism, than about religious reasons.
The Holocaust was a very real, and not too distant stain on the timeline of history, and there are people around today who would love to make it happen again.
You may laugh, but Anti-Semitism is VERY alive and thriving in the world today.
I'm sure anti-semitism is all over the place.


Sure no country has the right to annex land, and you probably already know that Marine and I both oppose the settlements in the occupied areas.
Not all Israeli political ideas are good ones. We acknowledge that.
But Israel is by far not the only country trying to annex in the world today... and Russia and China are by far the bigger threats in that regard.
I don't actually know that because not only do I hardly ever participate in threads of this nature whenever I bring up the point marine1 goes quiet instead of agreeing with me.


How can claim to support a group politically but disagree with their actions? Come on now.
 
How long have you?

Indeed, please enlighten us, did you visit the West Bank and Gaza? Must have been quite a fact finding trip to give you insight that we cannot gain from every major news site on the planet.
 
How can claim to support a group politically but disagree with their actions? Come on now.

People do it every day, I support the DA... but I don't agree with all of their policies.
Heck, I even give blood, but I don't agree with all the policies of the SANBS.
 
Would make things a lot simpler that is for sure :)

You are right I think. Seems to me this is at its core an ethno-religious conflict. The supporters are also in most cases seemingly divided along ethno-religious lines too. You're going to find a lot of folks either supporting or denouncing Israel simply because it is Israel. They will perhaps even hold different opinions of similar events that have happened throughout history but suddenly when it comes to Israel all the logic just vanishes in a cloud of ethno-religiously motivated emotion.

To add on to that - it's much more than religion, though. As are most of the troubles in the Middle East. You have hectic nationalist and geopolitical issues also playing out in the region.

Note also that throughout this entire saga in the last two months, and while absorbing continued rocket attacks from Gaza, Israel continues to supply Gaza with electricity, water, food and medical supplies.

Which is funded by tax collected from the territories.

And if they didn't shell Gaza to rubble every couple of months they wouldn't have to keep sending resources in.

You've avoided the question so I'll repeat. If Israel gives up land that Hamas then infiltrates to launch attacks deeper into Israel then what?

As did you. If Hamas stops firing rockets and acknowledges Israel and Israel still continues to expand their settlements then what?
 
I come from an uninformed position when I say this but...

It always seems to me like the Palestinians shoot at Israel but then when Israel shoot back or retaliate people get all crazy about it.

It's like throwing exceedingly big rocks at a tank and not expecting it to eventually aim it's turret at you.

So what's the deal?

Well sir, if you allow me to provide some insight.
It is not as simple as Palestinians shoot at Israel. Israel has since 1948 been persercuting a large amount of non-jewish people in the area. They have shoved them out to small sections of the area, restrict their movement, and restrict anything that goes in or out, be it medicine, food, aid, etc. They have, and still continue to forcefully remove people from their homes, bulldose their houses and build their own settlements on top of the rubble, that is exclusively for their own people. They have built massive walls to wall themselves away from the people they have done this to. The people on the other side of the wall live in an open air prison, and still face aggression from the well-funded well-armed and ruthless IDF.

Now, as I'm sure you have deduced, the victims of this activity have become frustrated by what is being done to them. They have no means of doing anything about such large scale oppression. Any government they form to attempt diplomatic discussion gets labelled as 'terrorists' by Israel and their mates if they are not willing to dance to the tune of thier oppressors. So what CAN they do? After decades of this, the only solution they see is to fight back. I know this is not really a solution, but it is the only thing they can do. They are sick and tired of having family after family pulled out of their own home and watch it being bulldozed infront of them. They are sick of having a massive wall push them further and further into their cramped quarters. These people have had enough with their own being arrested and detained regularly with no valid reason. They are sick and tired of these 'operations' that kill their children.
So they resort to firing rockets over the wall at Israel. Its all they can do. I don't believe its the right course of action, since their crude projectiles are not accurate and harm civilians, but even I am at a loss as to what they can do. But the minute they do this, immediately there are reports of it and Israel believe they are no entitled to 'realiate' by large scale military bombing. Hundreds are killed.

So yes, they are throwing rocks at tanks. Because the tanks are sitting square on top of the rubble where their homes once stood, and the corpses of their families, and rocks are all they have.
The ANC were labelled terrorists when Mandela and co. were sabotaging public infrastructure. They did not do that for the fun of it, but because it was the only course of action they could see. Likewise, those on the other side of the wall have no other avenue left but to fight back.
Perhaps one may argue that if they don't want to be bombed then they shouldn't attempt to resist oppression. But resistance is the only tool of the oppressed. And as long as any of them are still breathing, they will not submit to the Apartheid zionist regime, nor will they willfully let themselves and their families be subject to such humiliation.

Hope this clears it up, I'm sure there are many here who will disagree with my explination. There were also many who defended our own apartheid government too, which Israel was a staunch supporter of till the end.

May the people of Palestine be free again.
 
People do it every day, I support the DA... but I don't agree with all of their policies.
Heck, I even give blood, but I don't agree with all the policies of the SANBS.
So you support some actions of Israel and not others then?

This is a more rational stance. So you believe that much of what Israel does, like much of what Hamas does, is unjustifiable?
 
@gary

this thread need to be incorporated into the main gaza thread.
there are now 2 parallel discussions on the same topic - this one has long shed it's anc relevance
 
Growing up, I was exposed to some pretty wacky ideas about supporting Israel from a religious point of view (as someone posted earlier in this thread).
But in University I gave that up as a silly idea.
I do however continue to support them politically.
And to me, Marines post speaks far more about anti-Semitism, than about religious reasons.
The Holocaust was a very real, and not too distant stain on the timeline of history, and there are people around today who would love to make it happen again.
You may laugh, but Anti-Semitism is VERY alive and thriving in the world today.

Sure no country has the right to annex land, and you probably already know that Marine and I both oppose the settlements in the occupied areas.
Not all Israeli political ideas are good ones. We acknowledge that.
But Israel is by far not the only country trying to annex in the world today... and Russia and China are by far the bigger threats in that regard.

If not for the Israelis persisting with building settlements in the West Bank I would be 110% behind the Israelis. I can even accept that they may need to occupy these areas because they have been under attack since 1948. But for me, they crossed a line when they built settlements there. Clearly they have no intention of ever leaving. I find it very difficult expressing any support for Israel. But I have no problem being a critic of Hamas.

Frankly, Israel and Hamas deserve each other. It would be ideal if we could just ignore them, but in the real world that isn't possible, because the little sh*ts spread their hate to other part of the world. :)
 
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