Article: Israel attacks barbaric: ANC

[LazyLion]

Which highlights the silliness of the 'we were there first' argument - from either side.

I agree.... so all that leaves us with is the legality of the UN assigned partition in 1948.

 

[porchrat]

When the Caliph sided with the Germans in WWI and lost, the land was siezed by the Allied forces and governed by the UN.
At no point in time were they ever given legal title to the land.

Lets be honest though as the people actually living there they should have been.

 

[Saba'a]

I agree.... so all that leaves us with is the legality of the UN assigned partition in 1948.

You think palestinians agreed to it?

 

[LazyLion]

It did not belong to the UN either. It was not theirs to give.

To the winner, the spoils of war.
The Allies never asked for war... they were thrust into it.
If you don't like it, your are also welcome to try and take up arms against them.

Good luck with that.

 

[falcon786]

So in other words it's a very complex issue that has no easy answer, yet you are willing to ignore the complexities of land ownership in Palestine by ignoring any legitimate claim that Palestinians have to the land purely on the basis of religion.

I wont be surprised if this is what's driving Gary's viewpoint here.He has done it on the forum before in another unrelated thread,logic can be thrown out when dealing with certain religions for him.

Wishful thinking on your part. They were never citizens, they were subjects of an Empire and Caliph who ruled over them.
They had no legal claim on the land whatsoever.
They lived there by his permission and by his pleasure and were just lucky he didn't get angry enough with them to wipe them out completely.
When the Caliph sided with the Germans in WWI and lost, the land was siezed by the Allied forces and governed by the UN.
At no point in time were they ever given legal title to the land.

That last statement is what's perplexing,why would people already living on a land not be given legal title to the land,that makes no sense at all,lets displace this ENTIRE population of people to insert another whole population of people here.What in the world was the UN and Britain thinking?Probably the biggest brain fart in the last century and the devastation of that decision is being witnessed until today.

In fact what another poster asked makes sense,why not give the Zionists a piece of Germany since that's the people who supported Hitler and the wiping out of Jews.

 

[LazyLion]

Eish! Even squatters in South Africa get granted better rights. Imagine bringing in foreigners and evicting occupants of the land. How do people justify an injustice. Apartheid was legislated. Did it make it right? Of course not.

Is there supposed to be a point in here somewhere, cos I don't see one.
War never makes things right... and that region has had constant war for thousands of years.
If you are hoping for justice and rightness in the midst of all of that, I'm hopeful for you, but I also think you may be a bit naive.
Life is not fair. We just have to deal with the fallout.

 

[LazyLion]

Lets be honest though as the people actually living there they should have been.

Sure, in an ideal world. But this world is far from fair.
Like I said... the Allies never asked for war.
They fought the Caliph and won.
South Africa also got Namibia out of the deal.
It took nearly 90 years for the Namibians to gain independence.

 

[porchrat]

Sure, in an ideal world. But this world is far from fair.
Like I said... the Allies never asked for war.
They fought the Caliph and won.
South Africa also got Namibia out of the deal.
It took nearly 90 years for the Namibians to gain independence.

So, in an ideal world you think the inhabitants of that land should have received the land... but you simultaneously believe happened with Israel is correct... wah?

 

[LazyLion]

You think palestinians agreed to it?

No, I don't think they agreed to it.
But what choice do they have now.
They immediately went to war over it... and lost several times.
I think they should have chosen the diplomatic route.

 

[falcon786]

South Africa also got Namibia out of the deal.
It took nearly 90 years for the Namibians to gain independence.

Because that is what's right,the Namibians had a legitimate claim to that land since they were living there irrespective of what the UN or anybody else claimed was legal.How is it that you can see the fairness in some situations but not in others.The UN made a f up of note,the biggest f up in the last century and you cant see it.

 

[daveza]

I agree.... so all that leaves us with is the legality of the UN assigned partition in 1948.

Yup.

It's legal, but both unethical and immoral.

The Torah instructs one to seek righteousness and there is little in the UN agreement that is righteous.

 

[LazyLion]

I wont be surprised if this is what's driving Gary's viewpoint here.He has done it on the forum before in another unrelated thread,logic can be thrown out when dealing with certain religions for him.

See post #167.
And even if it was religious that is no different to you.

That last statement is what's perplexing,why would people already living on a land not be given legal title to the land,that makes no sense at all,lets displace this ENTIRE population of people to insert another whole population of people here.What in the world was the UN and Britain thinking?Probably the biggest brain fart in the last century and the devastation of that decision is being witnessed until today.

Except that there were not ONLY Palestinians living there.
If it was ONLY Palestinians it would have been a lot simpler and I would probably agree with you.
But Palestinians only made up 60% of the population at that time.
You had Jews, Egyptians, Africans, Europeans, and other Arabs living there as well.

 

[OrbitalDawn]

But Gary, surely we're not just talking about 'might makes right'. We're talking about the here and now, the people who live there now, and what needs to be done for everyone that lives there to live in relative security and peace?

 

[LazyLion]

So, in an ideal world you think the inhabitants of that land should have received the land... but you simultaneously believe happened with Israel is correct... wah?

They were not the only inhabitants. See post # 232.

 

[Saba'a]

Sure, in an ideal world. But this world is far from fair.
Like I said... the Allies never asked for war.
They fought the Caliph and won.
South Africa also got Namibia out of the deal.
It took nearly 90 years for the Namibians to gain independence.

And they got it. The sad thing is if Israel waits until a Rhodesia situation they will lose a great deal.

 

[Jola]

200 BC - The Seleucids
300 BC - Empire of Alexander
500 BC - The Babylonians and then the Medo-Persians.
600 BC - The Kingdom of Judea
1000 BC - The Kingdom of David
Pre-1000 BC - The Canaanites lived in "city states"

You wanna give it back to the Canaanites?
Good luck finding one!

You left out Genghis Khan.

 

[Timber_MG]

If people moving in and creating parallel societies is an invasion, then there is an invasion from middle eastern Muslims into Europe (oh wait this is openly admitted)

 

[Saba'a]

No, I don't think they agreed to it.
But what choice do they have now.
They immediately went to war over it... and lost several times.
I think they should have chosen the diplomatic route.

You know zionists would not have settled as their policy was to drive out palestinians.

 

[LazyLion]

Because that is what's right,the Namibians had a legitimate claim to that land since they were living there irrespective of what the UN or anybody else claimed was legal.How is it that you can see the fairness in some situations but not in others.The UN made a f up of note,the biggest f up in the last century and you cant see it.

Um, you do realise that the "Namibians" are made up of about 7 different tribes as well as English, Afrikaans and German Europeans.

If there were Palestinians in Namibia they would currently be launching rockets at those other tribes.

 

[Saba'a]

If people moving in and creating parallel societies is an invasion, then there is an invasion from middle eastern Muslims into Europe (oh wait this is openly admitted)

I sincerely hope you realise its a silly analogy