Basic income: the world's simplest plan to end poverty, explained

OrbitalDawn said:
The budget, where else? Who said anything about taxing people more? There are already welfare programmes in place that are funded. The idea is that this basic income replaces those welfare programmes. It's cheaper to have, too, because you don't have any of the bureaucracy that costs money to administer.
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I think you slightly underestimate the cost of such a program :). Let's say you want to grant everybody of working age in SA a basic income of R1400 p.m. (that's around the level of the State Old Age Pension in SA at the moment). There are about 32.5 million people in SA age 20 and over. Paying them R16800 p.a. will cost R546 billion p.a. The total revenue collected by SARS for the 2014/15 fiscal year was around R986 billion.

Taxation would have to be increased by quite a bit to not put the government's borrowing requirement under more strain than it already is without introducing at least some form of means-test (which increases the administration cost).

For comparison, currently SOAP costs around R46 billion p.a. and that is with a means-test - it's only available in full to people who have assets worth less than around R930k and incomes lower than R65k p.a.
 
Basic income: the world's simplest plan to end poverty, explained
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A sure way to impoverish the rest of the world as those that are the poorest breed like rabbits (many examples in the world) creating more and also poor individuals aggravating the burden. A sure way to get the lazy cants to remain lazy and burden the world economies. A fallacy that will never work. There are countries in Africa with a very high income per capita and yet most of the people remain poor as the criminal fat cats live in style.

Sorry Orbitaldawn, but there is but one thing in life to consider first and that is simple reality. Talk is cheap isint' it?

Even the ANC are thinking hard about our concept of their grant system and the way it's abused and not sustainable.
 
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Seriously said:
A sure way to impoverish the rest of the world as those that are the poorest breed like rabbits (many examples in the world) creating more and also poor individuals aggravating the burden. A sure way to get the lazy cants to remain lazy and burden the world economies. A fallacy that will never work. There are countries in Africa with a very high income per capita and yet most of the people remain poor as the criminal fat cats live in style.

Sorry Orbitaldawn, but there is but one thing in life to consider first and that is simple reality. Talk is cheap isint' it?

Even the ANC are thinking hard about our concept of their grant system and the way it's abused and not sustainable.
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I'm not sure how easy it would be to implement in South Africa at its present level of poverty. It could potentially be done in the US and other first world countries by raising income taxes, which I believe is quite an acceptable measure to take since income tax in the US is already very low and most middle-class and up Americans live well above their means. This would also be a way of redistributing wealth from the 'criminal fat cats' to the lower classes and smoothing the stark inequalities that have arisen from unfettered capitalism.

The breeding like rabbits argument is complete nonsense. The problems with destitution and over-breeding would be helped, not exacerbated, by providing a certain basic level of income. As median wealth increases, the number of children per household tends to decrease. Regardless if it would or wouldn't work however, it would be fascinating to see some countries who are in a more stable economic position trying this approach on a tentative basis, since despite all your opinions, nobody really knows until it's experimentally tested.

As for Arthur, I find his rampant capitalism peculiar given his Catholicism.
http://biblehub.com/luke/9-58.htm
http://biblehub.com/acts/4-32.htm
http://biblehub.com/acts/3-6.htm
http://biblehub.com/mark/12-17.htm

Etc.
 
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Rkootknir said:
I think you slightly underestimate the cost of such a program :). Let's say you want to grant everybody of working age in SA a basic income of R1400 p.m. (that's around the level of the State Old Age Pension in SA at the moment). There are about 32.5 million people in SA age 20 and over. Paying them R16800 p.a. will cost R546 billion p.a. The total revenue collected by SARS for the 2014/15 fiscal year was around R986 billion.

Taxation would have to be increased by quite a bit to not put the government's borrowing requirement under more strain than it already is without introducing at least some form of means-test (which increases the administration cost).

For comparison, currently SOAP costs around R46 billion p.a. and that is with a means-test - it's only available in full to people who have assets worth less than around R930k and incomes lower than R65k p.a.
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Yeah, it doesn't seem like a system that can work in any country where a small portion of taxpayers contribute nearly all the country's tax revenue.

SA, the rest of Africa, India, China, Russia, the Philippines etc. don't seem like the target audience of such an idea.
 
Rkootknir said:
I think you slightly underestimate the cost of such a program :). Let's say you want to grant everybody of working age in SA a basic income of R1400 p.m. (that's around the level of the State Old Age Pension in SA at the moment). There are about 32.5 million people in SA age 20 and over. Paying them R16800 p.a. will cost R546 billion p.a. The total revenue collected by SARS for the 2014/15 fiscal year was around R986 billion.

Taxation would have to be increased by quite a bit to not put the government's borrowing requirement under more strain than it already is without introducing at least some form of means-test (which increases the administration cost).

For comparison, currently SOAP costs around R46 billion p.a. and that is with a means-test - it's only available in full to people who have assets worth less than around R930k and incomes lower than R65k p.a.
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Well you'd have to remove the cost of all the current welfare programs that it will replace.

And this isn't aimed at every person over 20 in the country. As I mentioned, he Bolsa Familia (largest such programme in the world) covers 11 million people in a country with 180 million people.
 
OrbitalDawn said:
Well you'd have to remove the cost of all the current welfare programs that it will replace.

And this isn't aimed at every person over 20 in the country. As I mentioned, he Bolsa Familia (largest such programme in the world) covers 11 million people in a country with 180 million people.
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This M&G article from Feb this year says that 54% of South Africans are below the poverty line. The info comes from StatsSA.

I'm guessing a large percentage of our population isn't much better off than that. How would we choose who gets the basic income?
 
The ideal is of course that it covers everyone.

What constitutes basic would be around what the country could afford. As a test, something like 10% of the GDP per capita could be tried (though something like 20-30% would be ideal) - in much of the western world minimum wage is already at 50%
 
This is only will only work if you pay I to each and every person in the country.
Why should I be excluded? I pay my taxes and should be included in the benefits.
 
Mila said:
This is only will only work if you pay I to each and every person in the country.
Why should I be excluded? I pay my taxes and should be included in the benefits.
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Naturally. But a R1500 basic income to you and to your maid would have a drastically different effect.
 
Mila said:
This is only will only work if you pay I to each and every person in the country.
Why should I be excluded? I pay my taxes and should be included in the benefits.
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by definition, you are not. so just say "thank you". I really don't care who will pay me that but just give it to me (don't just talk) that will be good enough for me. :D
 
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Mila said:
This is only will only work if you pay I to each and every person in the country.
Why should I be excluded? I pay my taxes and should be included in the benefits.
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Government will get your share back just by reducing your annual tax rebate. This is what they are planning to do with the old age grant, pay it to everyone and reduce the over 65 rebate. From an administrative pov it would be a much simpler system.
 
If it wasn't for the rise of identity politics, we'd already have this.
 
Seriously said:
As I said TALK IS CHEAP!

The human factor and their tendencies to be lazy and corrupt will make such experiment fail. Why did communism fail again?
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I'm not sure how laziness and corruption will ruin this experiment. It's miles away from communism. In reality it's just a very simplified, democratized form of welfare, which most countries have in some form or other - and it removes the debasement and stigmatisation that causes welfare recipients to become what they end up being. If somebody really doesn't want to work and is perfectly content to receive (say) R1500 a month, it seems like a frugal way of supporting a human life, and that person probably isn't fit for work anyway and would just end up as an indigent.

For most people that money would just be a buffer on life, the same as when I was a child and my family got a child allowance which helped my parents buy clothing in the days when our money was very tight - and in the meantime my father studied and got a degree, and is now a leading IT architect in his field - at least partly helped by that government assistance.
 
cerebus said:
I'm not sure how laziness and corruption will ruin this experiment. It's miles away from communism. In reality it's just a very simplified, democratized form of welfare, which most countries have in some form or other - and it removes the debasement and stigmatisation that causes welfare recipients to become what they end up being. If somebody really doesn't want to work and is perfectly content to receive (say) R1500 a month, it seems like a frugal way of supporting a human life, and that person probably isn't fit for work anyway and would just end up as an indigent.

For most people that money would just be a buffer on life, the same as when I was a child and my family got a child allowance which helped my parents buy clothing in the days when our money was very tight - and in the meantime my father studied and got a degree, and is now a leading IT architect in his field - at least partly helped by that government assistance.
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Many of the opponents seem to think people will en masse abandon their high paying jobs and go on welfare so they can 'do nothing and get paid for it'.
 
$75,000 a Year from Uncle Sam


Follow these easy, proven 13 steps to financial well-being…

1. Don’t get married to her

2. Use your mom’s address to get mail sent to

3. Guy buys a house

4. Guy rents out house to his girlfriend who has two of his kids

5. Section 8 will pay $900 a month for a three-bedroom home

6. Girlfriend signs up for Obamacare so guy doesn’t have to pay out the butt for family insurance

7. Girlfriend gets to go to college free for being a single mother

8. Girlfriend gets $600 a month for food stamps

9. Girlfriend gets free cellphone

10. Girlfriend gets free utilities

11. Guy moves into home but uses mom’s house to get mail sent to

12. Girlfriend claims one kid and guy claims one kid on taxes… now you both get to claim head of household at $1,800 credit

13. Girlfriend gets disability for being “bipolar” or having a “bad back” at $1,800 a month and never has to work again

This plan is perfectly legal and is being executed now by millions of people.

A married couple with a stay-at-home mom yields $0.00 dollars.

An unmarried couple with stay-at-home mom nets:

$21,600 disability +

$10,800 free housing +

$6,000 free Obamacare +

$6,000 free food +

$4,800 free utilities +

$6,000 Pell grant money to spend +

$12,000 a year in college tuition free from Pell grant +

$8,800 tax benefit for being a single mother

= $75,000 a year in benefits


https://www.lewrockwell.com/2015/05/bill-bonner/zombies-brought-down-mayan-civilization/
 
cerebus said:
Naturally. But a R1500 basic income to you and to your maid would have a drastically different effect.
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I don't have a domestic, I am the domestic. But yes it would She has the grant and an income, I only have a grant. So she will be better off.
 
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