Basic income: the world's simplest plan to end poverty, explained

[Mila]

Many of the opponents seem to think people will en masse abandon their high paying jobs and go on welfare so they can 'do nothing and get paid for it'.

No, but how many workless people will actively stop looking for work and just live of the grant?
We lambast the "lazy" English and Americas but we applaud this?
Why would I go work as a till operator when I get a basic salary for nothing? You under estimate the lazy human habits.

I understand all other support will then fall away and these people will have to supplement their basic income with something else if you are logic about it. But we are extremely lazy creatures.

 

[Seriously]

Many of the opponents seem to think people will en masse abandon their high paying jobs and go on welfare so they can 'do nothing and get paid for it'.

The reverse is also true even closer to home as many do not want to pull themselves out of the gutter due to grants, freebies and financial assistance. Woman deliberately have more than on child to get more grants. A welfare society just do not work and people should do something to deserve what they get and not expect it automatically. Do you even know what the grant is from welfare for a child? R830.00/month. The child's bus transport to school is R300/month minimum leaving R530 for the rest. That excludes the needs for additional school items, clothing and personal requirements. So explain with facts what the basic wage should be and explain how it's sustainable and who should foot the bill.

As I say talk is cheap. Living in a false dreamworld even more so.

 

[Xarog]

The reverse is also true even closer to home as many do not want to pull themselves out of the gutter due to grants, freebies and financial assistance.

How exactly is one supposed to do that, to pull themselves out of the gutter, I mean?

Woman deliberately have more than on child to get more grants.

So we should make all struggling mothers suffer simply because some people may be deriving benefit from the system to a greater degree than we are comfortable with? What's the purpose of the grant? To help needy people, or not? Why should a potentially negative outcome outweigh all the likely positive outcomes?

A welfare society just do not work and people should do something to deserve what they get and not expect it automatically.

How do you come to this conclusion?

Do you even know what the grant is from welfare for a child? R830.00/month. The child's bus transport to school is R300/month minimum leaving R530 for the rest. That excludes the needs for additional school items, clothing and personal requirements. So explain with facts what the basic wage should be and explain how it's sustainable and who should foot the bill.

But these people can pull themselves out of the gutter so easily? Why do they need grants in the first place, if as you said, the solution to being in such a terrible situation is so easy?

I have met many many lazy people in my life. Not one of them had any problem doing something they weren't directly keen to do if it meant that it was part of achieving something that they very much wanted. The majority of struggling and poor people I have met are not lazy. No, they are suffering from despair, deserate to find anything that will save them from their wretched existence; hoping for that miracle that will save them. Why, if laziness is the only obstacle, are all these people not on their way to becoming the next Steve Jobs?

As I say talk is cheap. Living in a false dreamworld even more so.

Et tu, Brutus.

 

[cerebus]

The reverse is also true even closer to home as many do not want to pull themselves out of the gutter due to grants, freebies and financial assistance. Woman deliberately have more than on child to get more grants. A welfare society just do not work and people should do something to deserve what they get and not expect it automatically. Do you even know what the grant is from welfare for a child? R830.00/month. The child's bus transport to school is R300/month minimum leaving R530 for the rest. That excludes the needs for additional school items, clothing and personal requirements. So explain with facts what the basic wage should be and explain how it's sustainable and who should foot the bill.

As I say talk is cheap. Living in a false dreamworld even more so.

So your proposal is that people living in poverty should be forced to 'pull themselves out of the gutter' without recourse to social welfare aids? How do you expect that will happen, exactly? The cognitive strain of poverty alone is self-perpetuating. All your resources are necessarily focused on the most primitive and draining forms of survival tactics. As a student I lived barely above the poverty line in reality, but since my basic needs were met it never felt that way and I was able to give my attention to studying for my future.

 

[TriGuN]

Sounds to me like people here are suggesting an exclusionary "basic income"?
I notice people are equating it to welfare and benefits that already exist, and that would make it exclusionary, as opposed to the universal implementation.

TL;DR of a massive post.
Let all lower-middle class citizens actually pay some form of tax instead of gaining benefits.

On what planet are you living where the lower middle class don't pay significant income tax on their inadequate salaries, and where they have access to significant benefits that they actually waste their time claiming?

In a 1st world country:
That is the last class you want to squeeze, especially after introducing a basic income. Who the fk would want to be part of that class? Not even the people below them lol They work long hours, in skilled jobs, for sht pay, and they don't get things for free. They merely subsist from one month to the next as it is, except that they actually have to work in order to do that.
Giving them a choice to continue to subsist while being given their 8 hours a day back and then punishing them if they instead choose to keep their shty job by increasing their taxes and taking away the few benefits they have makes the choice even easier.

In South Africa:
You would have to squeeze everyone above them as well, to a much higher degree, and you would still run out of money almost immediately.

As for your "people not willing to work low paying jobs will give rise to an automation revolution" idea, I would love an automation revolution, but I suspect the economy would crash before that happened given the scenario you are painting. People would be very willing to work after that, for much less, and automation would be put on the back burner even more so than it is now. I see the advances in automation primarily continuing to come from the below replacement level of birth rates and the ageing populations in countries that don't practice mass immigration. For them it's not about whether people are willing to work for so little, it's that they don't have people.

 

[bgotapen]

For free ALWAYS has a catch...

 

[Mila]

For free ALWAYS has a catch...

If it's to good to be true....

Nothing is ever for free. This is just an amount paid to people and letting them spen it at their own discretion. So no more health care, no more free condoms and arv's.
Or so I understand.
No more free education.
No more subsidies to universities.

This will not only screw tax payers but poor people who think this sounds like more money... Guess again.

 

[Xarog]

For free ALWAYS has a catch...

Space is free.

So is air. Ideas are free too.

What's the catch when it comes to ideas? In what way are they limited?

 

[cerebus]

no more health care, no more free condoms and arv's.
Or so I understand.
No more free education.
No more subsidies to universities..

Not necessarily. Unemployment benefits would be replaced with this but other subsidies could remain. It's not free money but it is a redistribution of wealth so some would benefit and others would pay, as with all public services.

 

[Mila]

Not necessarily. Unemployment benefits would be replaced with this but other subsidies could remain. It's not free money but it is a redistribution of wealth so some would benefit and others would pay, as with all public services.

Now you are falling out of the bus again.
Then it's a crap system.
Redistribution of who's wealth?

 

[Mila]

The budget, where else? Who said anything about taxing people more? There are already welfare programmes in place that are funded. The idea is that this basic income replaces those welfare programmes. It's cheaper to have, too, because you don't have any of the bureaucracy that costs money to administer.

See this makes sense. Welfare programs will fall away.
Everybody will receive a basic benefit. Not just when you are without work.
no more child grants, no more public schools. No more welfare. You get your money and look after yourself.

 

[cerebus]

Now you are falling out of the bus again.
Then it's a crap system.

All social welfare and all tax funded systems have that basis. Do you feel it's better for the enormous and growing wealth inequalities to remain unchecked? The gap between the extremely wealthy and the destitute in some Western countries - and South Africa - is alarming. The countries with the highest levels of happiness also tend to be the ones with the most generous state support programs.

 

[cerebus]

See this makes sense. Welfare programs will fall away.
Everybody will receive a basic benefit. Not just when you are without work.
no more child grants, no more public schools. No more welfare. You get your money and look after yourself.

Some welfare programs will fall away like unemployment benefit. Others, like public health, schooling, and so forth, would probably remain.

 

[Mila]

All social welfare and all tax funded systems have that basis. Do you feel it's better for the enormous and growing wealth inequalities to remain unchecked? The gap between the extremely wealthy and the destitute in some Western countries - and South Africa - is alarming. The countries with the highest levels of happiness also tend to be the ones with the most generous state support programs.

Ours is more than generous. Our people just hasn't stopped having unprotected sex, and we have a whole lot of people from other countries we are supporting. If more people actually worked there would be lesser need for this crazy idea. Work should be created not more welfare.
Which are these countries?

Some welfare programs will fall away like unemployment benefit. Others, like public health, schooling, and so forth, would probably remain.

to increase this figure to the number where it counts as a basic salary for everybody you will have to cancel more than just unemployment. This is not a temporary sum like unemployment. This is a permanent sum, which all will receive till you die.

Your pie in the sky is looking unrealistic again.

 

[Mila]

http://mybroadband.co.za/vb/showthread.php/696888-Nigerians-want-xenophobia-compensation


Give give give. This is what people expect when you start giving money like you have an endless supply.

Why not create "monopoly" stores where people can donate free food and free clothes then the poor can use their "Monopoly" money to only buy there. Bartering also sounds like a system that can be used. I give free things for free labour.
Why do people think it is one to receive an income for doing absolutely nothing. Blows my mind.
Ideas, space and air might be free try and feed that to the poor. Tell them to eat their idees.

 

[pam32]

"My Momma told me that I am the breadwinner for the family.”

I was speaking to an emergency room physician this morning.

He told me that a woman in her late 20’s came to the ER with her 8th pregnancy.

She stated “my momma told me that I am the breadwinner for the family.” He asked her to explain. She said that she can make babies and babies get money for the family.

The scam goes like this:

The grandma calls the Department of Child and Family Services and states that the unemployed daughter is not capable of caring for these children. DCFS agrees and states that the child or children will need to go to foster care.

The grandma then volunteers to be the foster parent, and thus receives a check for $1500 per child per month in Illinois ..

Total yearly income: $144,000 tax-free, not to mention free healthcare (Medicaid) plus a monthly “Linx” card entitling her to free groceries, etc, and a voucher for 250 free cell phone minutes per month.

This does not even include WIC and other welfare programs.

Indeed, grandma was correct in that her fertile daughter is the “breadwinner” in the family.

http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/bloggers/2610850/posts

 

[OrbitalDawn]

See this makes sense. Welfare programs will fall away.
Everybody will receive a basic benefit. Not just when you are without work.
no more child grants, no more public schools. No more welfare. You get your money and look after yourself.

Can you survive on R1500* a month?

* Hypothetical figure.

Ours is more than generous. Our people just hasn't stopped having unprotected sex, and we have a whole lot of people from other countries we are supporting. If more people actually worked there would be lesser need for this crazy idea. Work should be created not more welfare.
Which are these countries?

Whole of Scandinavia, most Western Europe, Australia, New Zealand, Canada etc.

In addition to what cerebus said, the worse a country's inequality the more violent and unstable it is.

 

[^^vampire^^]

Can you survive on R1500* a month?

Whole of Scandinavia, most Western Europe, Australia, New Zealand, Canada etc.

In addition to what cerebus said, the worse a country's inequality the more violent and unstable it is.

I think it works well in these countries because most of the people are actually educated and willing and do work.
Bit hard when less than 10% of the country is supporting everyone else.

 

[^^vampire^^]

http://mybroadband.co.za/vb/showthread.php/696888-Nigerians-want-xenophobia-compensation


Give give give. This is what people expect when you start giving money like you have an endless supply.

Why not create "monopoly" stores where people can donate free food and free clothes then the poor can use their "Monopoly" money to only buy there. Bartering also sounds like a system that can be used. I give free things for free labour.
Why do people think it is one to receive an income for doing absolutely nothing. Blows my mind.
Ideas, space and air might be free try and feed that to the poor. Tell them to eat their idees.

This. Honestly if people don't work they should be left to die of hunger. Tired of working everyday while they do nothing and get paid for it. Need to get some Darwinism and natural selection back in this world. If you don't want to work then plant some crops at least. People always say there is no work but that's a lie. People just think that most work is beneath them and would rather ask for handouts then do some labour at a little lower of a rate than the next one.

I see all these guys standing outside builders warehouse looking for jobs but when you approach them and say you paying R150 a day to paint a wall they say "R200 or nothing". If one of them said R175 maybe one of them would be eating that night but no, they would rather shoot themselves in the foot.

 

[JStrike]

This. Honestly if people don't work they should be left to die of hunger. Tired of working everyday while they do nothing and get paid for it. Need to get some Darwinism and natural selection back in this world. If you don't want to work then plant some crops at least. People always say there is no work but that's a lie. People just think that most work is beneath them and would rather ask for handouts then do some labour at a little lower of a rate than the next one.

I see all these guys standing outside builders warehouse looking for jobs but when you approach them and say you paying R150 a day to paint a wall they say "R200 or nothing". If one of them said R175 maybe one of them would be eating that night but no, they would rather shoot themselves in the foot.

Oh wow. You're quite the example of humanity to look up to