'Bible allows incest'

Balstrome said:
Any religious person who has said one of the following does not hold themselves accountable as you suggest.
Please God forgive me.
Please God give me this thing.
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Ok... I'm a bit confused with your statement because it does not make much sense.:confused:

I find that you say the person does not hold themselves accountable, but isn't the point of asking someone for forgiveness admitting that you were at fault? Could you be a bit more precise with what you mean with this.

Longmans' dictionary definition of forgiveness:
"when someone forgives another person e.g. He never admitted his guilt or asked for forgiveness."

Forgive:
"stop being angry with someone and stop blaming them, although they have done something wrong."

Be a bit more precise please.:D
 
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Balstrome said:
I suggest that religion makes it oh so easy to justify anything, from raping your daughter, to stealing another countries resources. Now, I suggest try and use atheism to do this, it can not work, because atheism leads to accepting that all your actions are totally your responsibility. Anyone that does not apply to would be considered to be psychologically damaged.
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Lol this is true in some sense, but then again, when a man commits murder he could find a verse in the Bible that justifies his action, but that would also be a total contradiction because one of the Ten Commandments states that you cannot commit murder as it is a sin. (Makes me wonder if the person reading the Bible actually interpreted the reading correctly, just a thought)

So I'm just coming back to what I think the problem really is, it has nothing to do with religion in this aspect because the man committed the act and looked for something to try and justify his actions, he could easily have said "My mother told me do it", and you would find it just as silly.

Just a question I keep asking myself when I read something like this:
So is it really your religious books or is it man themselves, who by nature, can be cruel without the "guidance"(as some people seem to think the fault lies in the religion itself) of religious books?
 
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LOL, I doubt the aithiests would even be posting in this thread if the @rsehole had said "my science text book says I'm allowed to rape my doughter." Prejudice is a wonderful thing, those that are don't even know they are.
 
Ronjay said:
LOL, I doubt the aithiests would even be posting in this thread if the @rsehole had said "my science text book says I'm allowed to rape my doughter." Prejudice is a wonderful thing, those that are don't even know they are.
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This should not even be a dabate between a religious man and an athesits, it has nothing to do with the religion, only the person (whom obviously lacks serious logic) being seen as mentally ill.:twisted::D
 
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-LiLiTh- said:
"It does?..."
You're not sure?

Could I perhaps get an exact answer please, not links to evilbible and wikipedia.:D Seeing as I'm capped.
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From Wiki,

Incest in the Bible does not entirely overlap with the definition of incest in many modern nations. A few books of the Bible, particularly the early parts of the Torah, contain narratives in which certain individuals, from the same family as one another, engage in sexual intercourse together; while this could be construed as incest, endogamy is an alternative interpretation. The Bible does not, for example, forbid cousins from marrying, but it does prohibit sexual relations with several other close relatives.
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Endogamy -
Endogamy is the practice of marrying within a specific ethnic group, class, or social group, rejecting others on such bases as being unsuitable for marriage or other close personal relationships. A Danish endogamist, for example, would require that a marriage be only with another Dane.
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Endogamy is common in many cultures and ethnic groups, but globalization tends to counteract this tendency by exposing isolated ethnic groups to a wider variety of people and cultures. Several ethnic religious groups are notably endogamous, although with the added dimension of requiring marital religious conversion, permitting an ostensibly endogamous marriage to be performed since the convert has accepted the partner's culture. Certain groups such as Orthodox Ashkenazi Jews[1] have practiced endogamy strictly as an inherent part of their religious beliefs and traditions.
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From the other link,

3) More Murder Rape and Pillage (Deuteronomy 20:10-14)

As you approach a town to attack it, first offer its people terms for peace. If they accept your terms and open the gates to you, then all the people inside will serve you in forced labor. But if they refuse to make peace and prepare to fight, you must attack the town. When the LORD your God hands it over to you, kill every man in the town. But you may keep for yourselves all the women, children, livestock, and other plunder. You may enjoy the spoils of your enemies that the LORD your God has given you.
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All accounts of Jewish Ecclesiastic Law - Jews followed secular and religious law at that time, it was basically as one as well as some typical battles to create/reclaim Israel along the lines of the typical modus operandi of the type (which was common around the world - from South America to the Mongol invasion of China) - pacify the population which refuses by making an example of them.
Basically Jews fighting for survival - using 'all's fairin love and war' means.

It seems cruel now, but only a naive loon with no historical knowledge and intellect - sorry but the writer of that site comes across like that - would consider these as Christian commandments.

Instead the Christian defaults to this:

Ye have heard that it was said by them of old time, Thou shalt not commit adultery: But I say unto you, That whosoever looketh on a woman to lust 1937 after her hath committed adultery with her already in his heart. (Gospel of Matthew 5:27 - 28)
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This is a commandment or at least a message / advice from Christ. Compare and contrast this with the Old Testament accounts of events - Israelites come across an enemy tribe, they ask them to surrender, they don't - they fight them and winning they make sure they never have to fight them again OR in a similar vein - they take on female virgins to swell their own ranks - all things they had to do to survive in those harsh times. Did the Allies have to bomb Dresden or Nagasaki? The Allies were winning the war by that point, in contrast here the Jews are scraping by to survive. Chances are if they didn't do these things, there would be no Jews nowadays. Those were tough times.

Regarding Christ's view towards Children:
It were better for him that a millstone were hanged about his neck and he cast into the sea, than that he should scandalize one of these little ones.
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Luke 17:2
http://www.newadvent.org/bible/luk017.htm

Just to repeat, God (Jesus Christ) commands Christians away from raping and pillaging. Rape and child abuse is not justified or condoned by God. In terms of the OT it is not condoned but it is done sometimes for the greater good of the Jewish race. For behaviour instruction in the O/T look for the 10 Commandments and find no rape or incest there.

Anyone who uses those O/T passages to justify rape or murder is confused and incorrect, since they are not commandments or advice to do that but are recounts of historical events/occurrences - Jews battling other tribes in an inhospitable territory. In the New Testament, the message is clear - "Love Thy Neighbour...".
 
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Ronjay said:
LOL, I doubt the aithiests would even be posting in this thread if the @rsehole had said "my science text book says I'm allowed to rape my doughter." Prejudice is a wonderful thing, those that are don't even know they are.
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Doubtful that would happen, as even school biology textbooks show how interbreeding can be harmful. And that's just between sweetpeas. (The vegetable. Mind. Out. Of. Gutter.)

But, maybe 4000 years ago when bits of the Bible was being written, daughters were actually a portable harem that could be used at a father's will. We know they certainly didn't hold females in high regard back then. It's a common feature of many primitive societies.
 
Thanks Peter that was useful. Also in the particular context of Lot and his daughters - their children (Moab and Ammon) were forbidden from entering the congregation of God's people for 20 generations. So it must be a negative example of sin - like someone killing another man to sleep with his wife because David did the same.
 
grayston said:
But, maybe 4000 years ago when bits of the Bible was being written, daughters were actually a portable harem that could be used at a father's will. We know they certainly didn't hold females in high regard back then. It's a common feature of many primitive societies.
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I doubt it but the world was usually a more male run affair in most societies. However, this was man himself. We certainly had Germans, Russians, and others raping as late as 1945. Oh yes, we had UN, AU, French Foreign Legion and NATO troops rape in Somalia, Afganistan, Iraq and all over the world - even recently.
 
Balstrome said:
Just a bump, in case PeterCH missed this, (he tends to miss things at times, Yes, I know he is very busy, but I worked hard on this)
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Why did you bump that, did you think that was intelligent.

First, you're supposing that this man thought rationally to the point that he'd have NOT raped his daughter. Your point of view suggests that we can stop lust with rationality. People commit the sin of lust (as the Church calls it) on a daily basis. How can stalwart religious people do that? I guess because the sexual pull is stronger than the cognitive one. Let's not forget our own health care department's ineffectual methods at stopping HIV spread because people just can't change their sexual habits that easily.
Secondly, you have no idea - unless you know that man - what he was thinking - what his mental state was. You're not a health care professional so even if you knew his mental state you could not judge it.
Finally he was horny - he was a typical ordinary child molester - he abused his daughter.
In the Biblical references to rape I see all in the context of war - the ones pasted in that link or some life-death struggle between the Jews and non-Jews in Palestine.
I don't see any commandments ordering, suggesting or praising ordinary fathers and spurring them on to rape their daughters because it is a paternal duty God commands. The NT is filled with material to the contrary.

Look for the ordinary causes of paternal child abuse - usually an absent mother who is no longer having intercourse with the husband, alcohol abuse and and other psychopathology.

I'll repeat.

This guy was not motivated by a Biblical text. He was motivated by sexual desire. Secondly, he would have slept with her, no matter what. The OT verses referring to RAPE/INCEST are not COMMANDMENTS to perform these acts. The Bible is not an excuse in this case - nor a pretext. He could have used any pretext. He could have told her, all families to it, for example.

Oh one more thing. Supposedly he said "Look it's in the Bible, I must sleep with you." vs "Look it's in the encyclopedia, or Dr Jones told me, I must sleep with you."
Which one do you think would be easier to verify by the girl? Pick up a Bible or ask a minister OR find Dr Jones and break patient-doctor confidentiality to speak to him about sex abuse as part of ordinary healthy parenting? Which encyclopedia was it again? Which scientific manual?
 
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darkevil said:
A 59-year-old Atteridgeville man was arrested on Monday morning for allegedly raping his 16-year-old daughter, Pretoria police said.

Inspector Daniel Mavimbela said the man was arrested after the girl and her sister told a neighbour he had raped her during the night.

Youngest told to put on a skirt

The man apparently went to the room where his three daughters were sleeping.

He ordered one of the three girls to go to his room and smear his body with Vaseline.

"She arrived at his room accompanied by her youngest sister. The suspect then told the girl to return later and she should wear a loose-fitting skirt," said Mavimbela.

Girls told Bible allowed sex

The man then returned to the girls' room, this time allegedly going straight into their bed and ordering that he be covered with a blanket.

He allegedly slapped anyone who asked questions and told them even the Bible made provision for fathers to sleep with their daughters.

He allegedly ordered one of the girls to massage his private parts and raped her.

Neighbour asks questions

"When the girls left for school on Monday morning they were confronted by a suspicious neighbour. They spilled the beans," said Mavimbela.

The suspect was arrested and was expected to appear in the Atteridgeville Magistrate's Court soon.

http://news.iafrica.com/sa/2303061.htm

Sick:sick:
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Ah you know what, I was actually watching this on the news when it happened. Typical. The guy might as well blame it on society or whatever other scapegoat. This by no means confirms that the Bible condones incest..
 
Just to add, the most modern, most left, sexual education programs promote sex in teens as healthy and pleasurable, as long as one wears protection. Guess what-- let's use that.

Father: Daughter, sex is pleaurable and good. However to really pleasure your man the first time around you should know how. It's not easy.
Daughter: Ugh, really? I just dating Josh for a week only.
Father: I will happily help you. I will show you how to make your man happy. I know.
Daughter: But we just hold hands.
Father: That's because you are a square. I will show you how to be sexually free - just wear a condom OK?
Daughter: Maybe one day, dad...
Father: Let me show you tonight. Just don't tell anyone or they'll misunderstand. This is only because I love you honey and because the Department of Education says we should talk with our children and show them right ways about sex. Every father who loves his daughter does this.
Daughter: Oh well, I guess....it's pretty gross but if it helps me win Josh, I'll do it with you.

One can think of any pretext. Sexual debut is a worrying time for adolescents. Will she satisfy her boyfriend? Will he still love her? Well daddy will step in and show her how.

Anything is possible for those depraved and desperate enough to have sexual intercourse with their own underage offspring.

BUT WAIT! Sex-ed programs are pretty open and thorough. They don't mention anything about sleeping with daddy to practice.
Well neither do church ministers.
If the teen had rudimentary theological knowledge she would have called BS on dad's suggestion that the Bible says he must rape her.
The same would happen to the eager, new age, modern pro-hedonistic-incest sex dad in this post. The knowledge is there, just that
those in power will always manipulate those who know less. Again for Balstrome:

Anything is possible for those depraved and desperate enough to have sexual intercourse with their own underage offspring.

and once more...

Anything is possible for those depraved and desperate enough to have sexual intercourse with their own underage offspring.
 
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...could always ask pitbull he seems to be the resident sex therapist and master...
 
PeterCH said:
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Your points are all valid, mainly from your point of view, some I do have a problem it. But my response was at your request to provide a logical process that he could have generated in his own mind, which I did. Could it be wrong, most probably. But that was not the point as I saw from your request. Lastly I think that you would really not want to know what points of yours that I differ on, or why, so I will leave those out.
 
PeterCH said:
I doubt it but the world was usually a more male run affair in most societies. However, this was man himself. We certainly had Germans, Russians, and others raping as late as 1945. Oh yes, we had UN, AU, French Foreign Legion and NATO troops rape in Somalia, Afganistan, Iraq and all over the world - even recently.
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We did indeed.

And no current document that I can find tries to claim that this is a good thing, or acceptable, or honourable, or a great way to be a host to your guests.
 
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