Building under construction collapses in George

[Spizz]

building inspectors has to inspect everything
pretty sure you would get more checking by inspector on a expansion or small building projects

We posted about the same time, but you are talking about the NHBRC and house building, I'm talking about construction projects.

as that is where it would be less likely to have engineering sign-offs
in this type of project the responsibility will be shifted to a competent person

my first home was a timber home
in george itself there is only a few timber homes

so the building inspectors at the time wan't very clued up on regulations of those
so they insisted on engineer sign-off

luckily i got directed to somebody that was actually on the panel that wrote the manual on timber construction for the NHBRC (or so i wa stold)

he picked up on a error the rafter manufacturer made so they had to supply timber so i could fix their mistake
and pointed one a mistake i made repeatedly in a few spots

a few pieces of timber and bolts later i had a sign-off

so just about the only thing muni inspectors did was check the waste line

so i expect on these type of projects they stand back and let the more competent (engineer) take the lead same as on mine

,meanin if an engineer is a rubber stamper big **** can happen
though majority probably isn't, things can slip through the cracks

ie if the foreman doesn't climb up the oversee the poking or cavity washing checking how the steel is binded and placed etc
most likely it can happen hap hazardly , physical labour is seriously under valued so if you pay these guys peanuts how can you expect them to go the extra mile or even give a ****

now yes this type of thing changes that for a few years

 

[ShaunSA]

Not in this type of construction. I outlined it in earlier post 43...



Plans and all the things you mention have to be approved in advance of course, but during the construction not so. Or at least in any development I've built anyway, including blocks of apartments.

If the collapse was as I thought, then the neck on the block will be one or all of the above because any concrete pour would need approval from them and from what I see, the design and basic construction methods were not followed.

Wait you're saying municipal BI's inspect and sign off minor household projects but major developments get a free pass after the plans have been passed?

I'm seeing a problem already

 

[Spizz]

Wait you're saying municipal BI's inspect and sign off minor household projects but major developments get a free pass after the plans have been passed?

I'm seeing a problem already

That's what I'm saying about the difference between building a house and a construction project such as this. They are very different. The municipality and the NHBRC involvement is about regulating the guy who builds the houses around about your town. He's not an engineer, he is a carpenter or brickie who employs a few guys from the location.

 

[leon.davibe]

the problem is some much can happen inbetween inspections

ie i see so many sites with saw tooth corners and holes for perpendiculour walls
and even see evidence of sub standard vibration when form work is removed

as i drive past sites

so by the time a building inspector pops in you would not know all the crap that happened while he wasn't there

you need a competent person on a site all the time
now yes that is why you pay more for the bigger construction company/developer

but here in is the problem, many of these saw tooth walls i talk about i see on multi million homes with developers/contractors that have build many homes and supposedly knows

what they are doing

unfortunatley people fall for bullshitters left right and centre

the solar game is another field where this is happening at the momnent

 

[ToxicBunny]

the problem is some much can happen inbetween inspections

ie i see so many sites with saw tooth corners and holes for perpendiculour walls
and even see evidence of sub standard vibration when form work is removed

as i drive past sites

so by the time a building inspector pops in you would not know all the crap that happened while he wasn't there

you need a competent person on a site all the time
now yes that is why you pay more for the bigger construction company/developer

but here in is the problem, many of these saw tooth walls i talk about i see on multi million homes with developers/contractors that have build many homes and supposedly knows

what they are doing

unfortunatley people fall for bullshitters left right and centre

the solar game is another field where this is happening at the momnent

You are still talking homes rather than commercial developments, they use different processes.

 

[ShaunSA]

That's what I'm saying about the difference between building a house and a construction project such as this. They are very different. The municipality and the NHBRC involvement is about regulating the guy who builds the houses around about your town. He's not an engineer, he is a carpenter or brickie who employs a few guys from the location.

Then there is something exceedingly rotten in the state of Denmark

 

[Spizz]

Then there is something exceedingly rotten in the state of Denmark

Not at all. Construction projects are build by artisans, overseen by foremen who were once artisans, and are designed, overseen and inspected by several professional engineers of different disciplines.

In small towns, who knows what corners are cut, but it shouldn't be any different.

 

[leon.davibe]

That's what I'm saying about the difference between building a house and a construction project such as this. They are very different. The municipality and the NHBRC involvement is about regulating the guy who builds the houses around about your town. He's not an engineer, he is a carpenter or brickie who employs a few guys from the location.

people think big construction companies are not the same as bakkie builders

when in fact often the labourers doing the actual work is often the same qualitfication level
and may be slightly better in the fact that there tends to be a competent person on site most of the time

but that is assuming they are doiung what they should

on bigger projects in fact you are more likely to have a mood of the engineer will say if something is wrong
while the engineer expects this supervisor to be doing what he is suppose to do ie climb up and check that poking is done properly

in this game of musical chair responibility shifting it could be that nobody was paying attention to something they all assume someone else was

less likely to happen on a home project

behviour around props can get lax if only building 2 levels
and then suddenly the compounding effect of 5 levels can suddenly turn we always do this into a disaster like this

 

[leon.davibe]

Not at all. Construction projects are build by artisans, overseen by foremen who were once artisans, and are designed, overseen and inspected by several professional engineers of different disciplines.

In small towns, who knows what corners are cut, but it shouldn't be any different.

yea a big fish in a small pond like george may indeed not be on the level of small fish of a big pond like jhb

it could simply be a situation of being out of your depth not knowing it
but now they do

multi stories with concrete in different stages of cure needs a competent person on site always making sure that the neccesary props stay in place

george is well know for very few high buildings
and thus few with experience in this dicipline

 

[leon.davibe]

Not at all. Construction projects are build by artisans, overseen by foremen who were once artisans, and are designed, overseen and inspected by several professional engineers of different disciplines.

In small towns, who knows what corners are cut, but it shouldn't be any different.

but yea to a certain degree this is also the fairy tale some believe
that people work their way up
while in reality this often isn't the case

who has had an incompetent superior?
i have encountered a few

 

[vigras rojara]

but yea to a certain degree this is also the fairy tale some believe
that people work their way up
while in reality this often isn't the case

show of hands , who has had an incompetent superior

Jesus dude, you're rambling now. Not sure what your lack of JLs "keuring"has to do with buildings falling 30 years later.

 

[ToxicBunny]

Jesus dude, you're rambling now. Not sure what your lack of JLs "keuring"has to do with buildings falling 30 years later.

Cos like the sup was incompetent clearly and the lackeys just did whatever the fsck they wanted to.

 

[leon.davibe]

Jesus dude, you're rambling now. Not sure what your lack of JLs "keuring"has to do with buildings falling 30 years later.

yea sorry edited that rambling out

just that in reality incompetence is far more common than common sense

 

[L-Dog]

They would have some input, but yeah for a large scale construction project like this, it would be the QS and Structural Engineer more than anything else who's arses should be on the line.

QS is only responsible for the cost of construction and their inspection is only related to work done from a financial point of view not quality (architect) or staibility (engineer). Ultimately it will be the contarctor (who didn't build according to the design) or teh engineer who didn't design correctly. With the safety factors engineer design to I don't think it would likely and the contratcor would also have experience and should be able to comment if the slaps or columns design are way out of teh ordinary.

Will be intretsing to see what actually happend but surely a building doesn't totally colapse unless their wa major oversight from a few parties.

 

[ToxicBunny]

yea sorry edited that rambling out

just that in reality incompetence is far more common than common sense

And this very likely could be chalked up to incompetence, but the difference between your random anecdotes and this is that there will be a competent person who signed off on stages of the work and that person will be held accountable if corners were cut with their knowledge or they didn't do their due diligence and check everything properly.

 

[ToxicBunny]

QS is only responsible for the cost of construction and their inspection is only related to work done from a financial point of view not quality (architect) or staibility (engineer). Ultimately it will be the contarctor (who didn't build according to the design) or teh engineer who didn't design correctly. With the safety factors engineer design to I don't think it would likely and the contratcor would also have experience and should be able to comment if the slaps or columns design are way out of teh ordinary.

Will be intretsing to see what actually happend but surely a building doesn't totally colapse unless their wa major oversight from a few parties.

Well yeah, but a QS will "spec" materials to be ordered as I understand it, so if the QS cut corners and deviated from the engineers spec they would hold some culpability in this tragedy.

 

[vigras rojara]

yea sorry edited that rambling out

just that in reality incompetence is far more common than common sense

True

 

[leon.davibe]

And this very likely could be chalked up to incompetence, but the difference between your random anecdotes and this is that there will be a competent person who signed off on stages of the work and that person will be held accountable if corners were cut with their knowledge or they didn't do their due diligence and check everything properly.

prop work also come into play
many take that lightly

even if the steel was inspected and the concrete was the desired MPA
ie all went as planned , concrete takes time to cure if props wa removed that shpould not have
that was hampering progress all the inspections means nothing

like i said it could also be the fact that in george low buildings
what ÿou"always did on a 2 storey building can become catastrophic on a 5 storey

expect some stricter regulations or enforcement around formwork/props to follow in the area

 

[L-Dog]

Well yeah, but a QS will "spec" materials to be ordered as I understand it, so if the QS cut corners and deviated from the engineers spec they would hold some culpability in this tragedy.

The QS draws up the Bill of quantities which the contarctor prices. This BOQ may never be used to order material this is only done from engineers and architects drawings / schedules. This is how the private sector works and this is usually noted in the contract. For smaller / less informal projects (e.g. Building a warehouse on your farm) often the QS or Client/Developer might oveerule the archiect/engineer however its technically not legal and for a big project like this I doubt it happend although no one knows just yet.

 

[ToxicBunny]

prop work also come into play
many take that lightly

even if the steel was inspected and the concrete was the desired MPA
ie all went as planned , concrete takes time to cure if props wa removed that shpould not have
that was hampering progress all the inspections means nothing

like i said it could also be the fact that in george low buildings
what ÿou"always did on a 2 storey building can become catastrophic on a 5 storey

expect some stricter regulations or enforcement around formwork/props to follow in the area

This is not the first in progress building collapse in recent history in SA, and it unfortunately it won't be the last.

Expect not much to change at the end of the day.