Building under construction collapses in George

[ToxicBunny]

The QS draws up the Bill of quantities which the contarctor prices. This BOQ may never be used to order material this is only done from engineers and architects drawings / schedules. This is how the private sector works and this is usually noted in the contract. For smaller / less informal projects (e.g. Building a warehouse on your farm) often the QS or Client/Developer might oveerule the archiect/engineer however its technically not legal and for a big project like this I doubt it happend although no one knows just yet.

Interesting, maybe my experience has been more in the "informal" project space where the QS had a bit more power as it were.

 

[Oldfut]

The QS draws up the Bill of quantities which the contarctor prices. This BOQ may never be used to order material this is only done from engineers and architects drawings / schedules. This is how the private sector works and this is usually noted in the contract. For smaller / less informal projects (e.g. Building a warehouse on your farm) often the QS or Client/Developer might oveerule the archiect/engineer however its technically not legal and for a big project like this I doubt it happend although no one knows just yet.

All TIC the QS (the accountant of the building trade) is probably part of the problem trying to cut costs by cutting the contractor's rates until good quality work isn't economical; aside from setting up contracts with draconian penalties and heaping responsibility on others.

 

[Spizz]

prop work also come into play
many take that lightly

even if the steel was inspected and the concrete was the desired MPA
ie all went as planned , concrete takes time to cure if props wa removed that shpould not have
that was hampering progress all the inspections means nothing

like i said it could also be the fact that in george low buildings
what ÿou"always did on a 2 storey building can become catastrophic on a 5 storey

expect some stricter regulations or enforcement around formwork/props to follow in the area

You are scratching the surface with your limited knowledge of construction methods and it's checks and balances and are not really making sense by mentioning conrete strength and removing a prop.. I've explained all of this earlier in thread, including the props and there's a few posts after this addressing some of your points.

Civil engineer here, I've built many multistorey constructions, including some big offices in CT that maybe some of you are sitting in reading this.

First thoughts looking at the one picture are that the columns do not appear to have rebar at angle to tie into the floor at 90 degrees, so in essence, the floors have punched through them. From the pic the rebar is straight up and the floor is detached. Should be like this...

View attachment 1704739

So the building looks like it's pancaked and the columns designed to hold the floors have been useless in stopping the loads bearing down on it. First thought again is this could be due to the floors not being given enough time to cure properly, so not reaching design strength and crucially, also not being supported properly during the time it takes to cure.

The formwork for the top floor needs to obviously be propped when the concrete is poured onto it. What is not always understood is what happens to the floors below. For example, and putting it simply, if the 4th floor has 100% props, third floor needs to have 50% props and second floor has to have 25% props. This is to distribute the loads through the floors and down the columns and down to the ground.

So if the 4th floor is cast and the 3rd floor has not reached sufficient strength and the props are not distributed properly or even removed, then this could lead to the loads being unevenly distributed and considering the columns don't appear to be supporting the floors, then this whole thing pancakes out one floor on top of the other.

I've had several near misses with people removing props because they don't understand the process, sometimes even during casting the top deck, someone two floors below has moved props hat get in their way.

Anyway, just a guess going on the one picture.

 

[ShaunSA]

Not at all. Construction projects are build by artisans, overseen by foremen who were once artisans, and are designed, overseen and inspected by several professional engineers of different disciplines.

In small towns, who knows what corners are cut, but it shouldn't be any different.

At least I learned something new today

But now the question I have. Is wtf are journalists interviewing the mayor and city manager? They should be running to the artisans, foreman and professional engineers

And my apologies to the Gorgy Porgy mayor. This is not a municipal issue cos they didn't need to do or inspect ****all but pass some plans

 

[leon.davibe]

This is not the first in progress building collapse in recent history in SA, and it unfortunately it won't be the last.

Expect not much to change at the end of the day.

area dependant i think
time will tell

a few years ago there was a retaining wall that also colapsed on a site if i remember correctly
some might be playing too fast and loose with how they do things

think they cast the concrete too soon
but lots of salt crappy memory

 

[Spizz]

Interesting, maybe my experience has been more in the "informal" project space where the QS had a bit more power as it were.

Yep, there are varying degrees of involvement of a QS depending on the company and it's size.

Basically though, when a certain MPa of concrete or yield strength of the rebar is specified, it is up to the site/civil engineer to have the concrete sampling tools, curing station organised and set up, the testing lab and procedures mapped and the paperwork for the mix design on file, or indeed the tensile tests conducted for the rebar on hand before construction begins, and all of this is approved by the customers engineer.

 

[leon.davibe]

At least I learned something new today

But now the question I have. Is wtf are journalists interviewing the mayor and city manager? They should be running to the artisans, foreman and professional engineers

And my apologies to the Gorgy Porgy mayor. This is not a municipal issue cos they didn't need to do or inspect ****all but pass some plans

people always look for a scape goat that should not have allowed this to happen

but want to complain if they have to deal with extra red tape

many want their cake and eat it too unfortunately

 

[Spizz]

At least I learned something new today

But now the question I have. Is wtf are journalists interviewing the mayor and city manager? They should be running to the artisans, foreman and professional engineers

And my apologies to the Gorgy Porgy mayor. This is not a municipal issue cos they didn't need to do or inspect ****all but pass some plans

Yep, and I'd be very surprised if the plans were at fault.

 

[buka001]

They would have some input, but yeah for a large scale construction project like this, it would be the QS and Structural Engineer more than anything else who's arses should be on the line.

I disagree on the QS, unless the QS specifically stated to the site team to use lower quality rebar or concrete.

If the site team decided on their own accord to use lower quality materials to allow them to report better savings, that is not really a QS responsibility. I don't think a QS has to sign any official HSE appointment, that your site managers etc have to sign under the Health And Safty Act.

 

[leon.davibe]

I disagree on the QS, unless the QS specifically stated to the site team to use lower quality rebar or concrete.

If the site team decided on their own accord to use lower quality materials to allow them to report better savings, that is not really a QS responsibility. I don't think a QS has to sign any official HSE appointment, that your site managers etc have to sign under the Health And Safty Act.

yea the QS doesn't specify the steel just calculates according to trends and standards
the engineer is the final word as he will be the one to sign the structure off

 

[L-Dog]

Interesting, maybe my experience has been more in the "informal" project space where the QS had a bit more power as it were.

Yeah it probably does happen but in an opperation the surgeon won't listen to the medical rep and use a cheaper product they should use the correct product.

All TIC the QS (the accountant of the building trade) is probably part of the problem trying to cut costs by cutting the contractor's rates until good quality work isn't economical; aside from setting up contracts with draconian penalties and heaping responsibility on others.

Agreed this, some ruthless developers, skills shortages and often contractos underpricing a project just to stay afloat all contribute to the problem. Just after Covid many good contarctors and sub-contarctors didn't make it due to being stuck on site, unable to build and not recieveing any compensation. Some of the ones that did survivce also priced projects at a small loss or just cut down on their senior management / supervision on site rather opting for cheaper solutions.

Genrally new construction projects are very safe and we have had very few collapses but if some of the factors mentioned above are not addresed we might see more tragedies in the near future.

 

[L-Dog]

people always look for a scape goat that should not have allowed this to happen

but want to complain if they have to deal with extra red tape

many want their cake and eat it too unfortunately

There is some rediculous red tape like the city council that approves the building plans checks the landscaping but not structural stability which makes no sense. The only actual depratment that has any H&S input is the fire department which makes sure the buildings comply the rest is left up to the contarctor and professional team.

 

[Spizz]

There is some rediculous red tape like the city council that approves the building plans checks the landscaping but not structural stability which makes no sense. The only actual depratment that has any H&S input is the fire department which makes sure the buildings comply the rest is left up to the contarctor and professional team.

If the local councils wanted to take responsibility for structural stability, they'd have to hire a huge team of professional engineers and not the random that checks the foundations for your new garage are deep enough.

Also, nothing would ever get built. It would be a nightmare.

 

[leon.davibe]

There is some rediculous red tape like the city council that approves the building plans checks the landscaping but not structural stability which makes no sense. The only actual depratment that has any H&S input is the fire department which makes sure the buildings comply the rest is left up to the contarctor and professional team.

Yea the red tape often doesn't go where it should

Ot where it would make sense

 

[L-Dog]

If the local councils wanted to take responsibility for structural stability, they'd have to hire a huge team of professional engineers and not the random that checks the foundations for your new garage are deep enough.

Also, nothing would ever get built. It would be a nightmare.

Not take responsability but check it. Any proper structural engieer can look at drawings and within a minute tell you if the building is safe, risky or unsafe. So many councils litrally have a team of people who count the number of tress on your SDP then go to site and count the trees to make sure you didn't deviate from the plan.

You can have like 1 or 2 engineers to just double check and point out risks, the fire department does this to ensure all escape routes, fire doors etc are in place why not the structure ?

 

[Spizz]

Not take responsability but check it. Any proper structural engieer can look at drawings and within a minute tell you if the building is safe, risky or unsafe. So many councils litrally have a team of people who count the number of tress on your SDP then go to site and count the trees to make sure you didn't deviate from the plan.

You can have like 1 or 2 engineers to just double check and point out risks, the fire department does this to ensure all escape routes, fire doors etc are in place why not the structure ?

Check what? The drawings?

 

[L-Dog]

Yes architect drawings will show column positions, beams slabs etc

 

[Progenix Oj101]

What happened to NeoTrend's website?

 

[Grouter]

What happened to NeoTrend's website?

Same as what happened to all the "apartment for sale in NeoVictoria R1.7 million" ads that all disappeared from Property24 George. Pulled. Only sensible and correct thing to do really.

 

[Progenix Oj101]

Same as what happened to all the "apartment for sale in NeoVictoria R1.7 million" ads that all disappeared from Property24 George. Pulled. Only sensible and correct thing to do really.

I'm not sure - unless that was their only project? If PnP sells bottles of mayonnaise filled with broken shards, they pull the product, not the entire store?