CapeXit 2

[Vorastra]

None of you fúckers are leaving. You're here with us....FOREVER.

 

[vigras rojara]

It's easy for expats to lose touch with SA reality though... one of the main issues with discussing these topics on line I suppose.

Most property owners I know in SA are still maintaining their properties, which Lex said above is unlikely to happen when properties are under threat. Cape Town prices have gone through the roof, so people aren't worried about the imminent removal of property rights by this measure either.

I am planning on buying a property is SA later this year and am not as out of touch with the market as you may assume.

 

[ToxicBunny]

You clearly think most SAn property owners have no fear of either EWC, where fair compensation can be decreed to be nil, or the absence of law-enforcement in the courts to protect from trespassers/squatters/petty govt bureaucrats on private land or property.

If that is you, you are hopelessly out of touch with the trajectory in SA.

Property owners that are either old-money owners, ANC voters who are cut in to political privilege, or those who's income/pension are protected through stifled market competition aka 'State regulation,' would say there is nothing to be concerned about.

Good grief, vigras.

Reality would tend to entirely disagree with your statements here.
Property prices are generally on an upward trajectory all over the country, demand for property outstrips supply by a healthy margin, etc etc etc.

 

[lexity]

Most property owners I know in SA are still maintaining their properties, which Lex said above is unlikely to happen when properties are under threat. Cape Town prices have gone through the roof, so people aren't worried about the imminent removal of property rights by this measure either.

I am planning on buying a property is SA later this year and am not as out of touch with the market as you may assume.

Will this be your only property, or do you have a plan B for an EWC-esque SHTF scenario?

Many property owners don't have the luxury of flying out when the NDR starts to bear tangible fruit that reaches even the market-privileged.

They have to live with the threat as it already exists.

The Kaya-lam recipients i.e. an example of the lower end of the private property-owning spectrum, will feel the effects first. They can least afford what it costs to mitigate the risk.

 

[Brian_G]

Most property owners I know in SA are still maintaining their properties, which Lex said above is unlikely to happen when properties are under threat. Cape Town prices have gone through the roof, so people aren't worried about the imminent removal of property rights by this measure either.

I am planning on buying a property is SA later this year and am not as out of touch with the market as you may assume.

People have definitely become fearful of what may transpire. And costs are beginning to skyrocket, with everything.

 

[lexity]

Reality would tend to entirely disagree with your statements here.
Property prices are generally on an upward trajectory all over the country, demand for property outstrips supply by a healthy margin, etc etc etc.

Supply can be artificially constrained.

Surely you can see that, right?

 

[vigras rojara]

Will this be your only property, or do you have a plan B for an EWC-esque SHTF scenario?

Many property owners don't have the luxury of flying out when the NDR starts to bear tangible fruit that reaches even the market-privileged.

They have to live with the threat as it already exists.

The Kaya-lam recipients i.e. an example of the lower end of the private property-owning spectrum, will feel the effects first. They can least afford what it costs to mitigate the risk.

It would be a second property - the intention is to spend nine months a year in the UK and three months in SA.

I wouldn't consider the option of I believed I'd lose the money, although I don't see it as a financial investment per se, more of a lifestyle investment.

 

[Brian_G]

Another factor - I'm in bad Jo'burg, not quite the same picture being painted here than in WC.

 

[Grant]

You clearly think most SAn property owners have no fear of either EWC, where fair compensation can be decreed to be nil, or the absence of law-enforcement in the courts to protect from trespassers/squatters/petty govt bureaucrats on private land or property.

do you really believe the masses will suddenly converge on hyde park, claremont, durban north, camps bay etc - and take over residential properties ?
keep in mind we have a rapidly emerging black middle class, living in those self same areas

Property owners that are either old-money owners, ANC voters who are cut in to political privilege, or those who's income/pension are protected through stifled market competition aka 'State regulation,' would say there is nothing to be concerned about.

only those who have heightened and displaced sense of paranoia envisage some kind of grand "palace coup" whereby the utterly lawless will somehow attempt to snatch residential properties - left, right and centre.
in fact, the doomsday folk have been predicting this type of scenario since about 1992 - and here we are, not much to report on that front (and prediction).

 

[ToxicBunny]

Supply can be artificially constrained.

Surely you can see that, right?

Surely you aren't this stupid.

Explain how supply is artificially constrained in the property market in a fashion that supports your EWC narrative.

 

[Brian_G]

do you really believe the masses will suddenly converge on hyde park, claremont, durban north, camps bay etc - and take over residential properties ?
keep in mind we have a rapidly emerging black middle class, living in those self same areas

only those who have heightened and displaced sense of paranoia envisage some kind of grand "palace coup" whereby the utterly lawless will somehow attempt to snatch residential properties - left, right and centre.
in fact, the doomsday folk have been predicting this type of scenario since about 1992 - and here we are, not much to report on that front (and prediction).

It's happened elsewhere, and there's no real police force or army to speak of.

 

[lexity]

do you really believe the masses will suddenly converge on hyde park, claremont, durban north, camps bay etc - and take over residential properties ?
keep in mind we have a rapidly emerging black middle class, living in those self same areas

only those who have heightened and displaced sense of paranoia envisage some kind of grand "palace coup" whereby the utterly lawless will somehow attempt to snatch residential properties - left, right and centre.
in fact, the doomsday folk have been predicting this type of scenario since about 1992 - and here we are, not much to report on that front (and prediction).

Clearly masses will rock up from a squatter camp and claim public/municipal land right in the middle of a small town like Hermanus.

You know about that case, right?

What about the race track example?Did you see the documentary on what happened there? That's evidence of the problem going from public land to private land.

I get that some owners are more sheltered from the risk than others, but that's not all that relevent, given the fact that historically these developments don't stand still. The incentive is toward socialization of all private property. To the extreme where your personal belongings are mercifully granted to you, by the State and it's cronies(PPP) i.e. you have no legal right to them.

That's the stock trajectory, given a Marxist government.

The WC govt has demonstrated it is both impotent and indifferent to that Marxist trajectory.

 

[Brian_G]

That's the bottom line really guys, you're all overlooking the fact that this country is in the strong grip of socialist and communist influences, one way or the other.

Do we really dare ignore that?

 

[vigras rojara]

That's the bottom line really guys, you're all overlooking the fact that this country is in the strong grip of socialist and communist influences, one way or the other.

Do we really dare ignore that?

Please explain how the country is communist?

 

[lexity]

Surely you aren't this stupid.

Explain how supply is artificially constrained in the property market in a fashion that supports your EWC narrative.

When only govt-endorsed contractors can develop land and build housing... that creates an artificial shortage in supply. Which boosts prices to levels above their - unsubsidized - levels.

Take away the market-protection mechanism of State-regulation(which escapes notice via the label 'consumer protection'. Consumer-protection is a half-truth. All that's needed for plausible deniability is to provide some level - ANY level - of consumer protection. It doesn't matter what you sacrifice in terms of lack of open competition).

You read a bit of economics you soon see how the game is played, and why most people sense something is very wrong but can't quite put their finger on it. Because the State has a monopoly on violence, its anti-market propaganda ends winning over(*) the unsuspecting.

* the persuasion is ofc faux, because of the criminal aspect to every monopoly on force. Nobody in their right minds would consider permission by a victim who has a gun to his head at the time he's robbed, as a legitimate defense. Nothing he says in the moment can mitigate for the gun to his head.

The gun is the threat of violence if you decide to serve your community without the uninvited 3rd-party's permission, that calls itself 'Consumer-protector supreme'.

 

[ToxicBunny]

When only govt-endorsed contractors can develop land and build housing... that creates an artificial shortage in supply. Which boosts prices to levels above their - unsubsidized - levels.

Take away the market-protection mechanism of State-regulation(which escapes notice via the label 'consumer protection'. Consumer-protection is a half-truth. All that's needed for plausible deniability is to provide some level - ANY level - of consumer protection. It doesn't matter what you sacrifice in terms of lack of open competition).

You read a bit of economics you soon see how the game is played, and why most people sense something is very wrong but can't quite put their finger on it. Because the State has a monopoly on violence, its anti-market propaganda ends winning over(*) the unsuspecting.

* the persuasion is ofc faux, because of the criminal aspect to every monopoly on force. Nobody in their right minds would consider permission by a victim who has a gun to his head at the time he's robbed, as a legitimate defense. Nothing he says in the moment can mitigate for the gun to his head.

The gun is the threat of violence if you decide to serve your community without the uninvited 3rd-party's permission, that calls itself 'Consumer-protector supreme'.

What govt-endorsed contractors are you referring to specifically, and how does that equate to an artifical shortage in this country specifically.

Rather than vague assertions, put some concrete facts on the table lexy.

 

[lexity]

What govt-endorsed contractors are you referring to specifically,

I already said.... land devleopment and housing.

Are you being deliberately obtuse?

and how does that equate to an artifical shortage in this country specifically.

I just explained that.

State regulation has the real-world effect of preventing natural market clearance.

So now you don't see competitors in the market that you would otherwise..... new competitors, most of them cannot afford the artificial barriers that parade as consumer protection.

If you are waiting to see the competitors that were not allowed in, can you see the logical contradiction you are caught in?

Rather than vague assertions, put some concrete facts on the table lexy.

Is it vague because you can't see any competitors that were kept out of the market?

You aren't special.... you too need to use logic in arriving at conclusions that guide your actions.

Don't act as though you are exempt from logic.

 

[vigras rojara]

The argument now seems to be that because the state gets to regulate land zoning and builders are registered with an industry body, that EWC is absolutely happening?

 

[ToxicBunny]

The argument now seems to be that because the state gets to regulate land zoning and builders are registered with an industry body, that EWC is absolutely happening?

We're pivoting the argument to "State BAD! EV0L monopoly capital therefore secession good!"

 

[lexity]

The argument now seems to be that because the state gets to regulate land zoning and builders are registered with an industry body, that EWC is absolutely happening?

He's saying that rising prices is evidence that real estate valuation is not adversely affected by weakening of private property protection, and that if anything it suggests the reverse..

I'm saying there are other factors to consider when it comes to rising prices. Factors that aren't that mysterious once you take on the individual responsibility to read a bit of basic history of economics, and market clearance.

We're back at the base problem in these discussions i.e. the State has promised to do the average person's thinking for them. The average person has been suckered in to that false sense of security. To the extent that if you point out the scam, then you must be the real scammer.